Spirituality or just emotion...?

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_Tarski
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Tarski »

Franktalk wrote:The advancement of new ideas do not come from people who believe that everything taught to them represents the whole truth and there can be no further knowledge obtainable.

No one claimed otherwise and this isn't the problem in your case!

This barrier to new ideas is a major stumbling block to many who have accepted the idea that the current understanding of man is somehow perfect and further investigation is not required or desired but new ideas are to be mocked and ignored if they don't fit into a certain mold.

How big of a problem could this be given that I know of NO ONE that the current understanding of man is perfect? No one!


In my case the ideas come from a different perspective of the observations of the world.

In your case, and unlike Einstein's case, the problem is related to logic and clarity of thought.



If a man learns of new knowledge like the idea of a spiritual layer of reality that man can use the tools of this physical world to mock and discount the existence of this new view of our reality.

Awkward sentence as best. The man mocks himself?

This is very common and it serves as a test to the man and his flesh.

It tests his flesh?

If a man believes that he is flesh and the whole of reality is the physical world then that person has walled themself in with their world view. [grammar!]


Think about this: If a man believes that the whole of reality is the physical world plus the spiritual world then he has walled himself in that world. He can never come to a realization of what is beyond the mere physical and beyond the mere spiritual!!
He can never come to know of the supra-hylomorphic world that underlies both the physical and the spiritual. See in the church of supra-hylo we are beyond you mere spiritualists and physicalists.

In the case of Einstein he did not accept that the physical world was fixed but fluid and subject to change.

The idea that the physical world is in flux and not fixed is obvious and not a contribution of Einstein. Cavemen knew it.

I embrace this idea and have used it to form many of my views of reality. I have for years tried to tell people that atomic decay rates were different in the past.

And the evidence is against you. There is no motivation to suppose that decay rates were different in the past except to salvage some creationist notions.


I thought it made the most sense and it allowed erosion rates to then match up with decay rates of radioactive elements.

You absolutely unequivocally do not know what you are talking about.
Real scientists have always crosscorrelated evidence from different branches of physical science. The fact that they line up when analysed with sufficient care is what gives us our justified confidence. You are reading crappy fringe pseudo-science.

I was of course mocked for my view of the past and told that the constants of physics are not changeable. Science is only now finding out that what many thought to be constant is indeed not fixed.

Scientists use evidence, analysis and logic to obtain such results (assuming they pass the test of time).
But you just knew it by magical intuition---right?


This is has yet to be checked and has not withstood the test of time. But you like it so you accept it wholesale. LOL

So how does one take in this new information from researchers? Do we go back and examine all of our currently held views or do we sit and wait for the experts to tell us what to think?

You of all people should sit and wait since you haven't any expertise or even scientific sensibility.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Franktalk
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Tarski wrote:No one claimed otherwise and this isn't the problem in your case!


But it is. Just because everyone says otherwise does not stop the behavior.

Tarski wrote:How big of a problem could this be given that I know of NO ONE that the current understanding of man is perfect? No one!


If that is true then why do I run across so many people who seem to know for sure how it all works?

Tarski wrote:In your case, and unlike Einstein's case, the problem is related to logic and clarity of thought.


I use the same logic just a different data set.


Tarski wrote:Awkward sentence as best. The man mocks himself?


No doubt. I am sure you are impressed easily but not with this subject.

Tarski wrote:It tests his flesh?


Sure does.

Tarski wrote:Think about this: If a man believes that the whole of reality is the physical world plus the spiritual world then he has walled himself in that world. He can never come to a realization of what is beyond the mere physical and beyond the mere spiritual!!
He can never come to know of the supra-hylomorphic world that underlies both the physical and the spiritual. See in the church of supra-hylo we are beyond you mere spiritualists and physicalists.


What you say may be true. What we learn after death can be beyond our ability to even think about it.

Tarski wrote:The idea that the physical world is in flux and not fixed is obvious and not a contribution of Einstein. Cavemen knew it.


Not so. Have you heard of uniformitarianism?

Tarski wrote:And the evidence is against you. There is no motivation to suppose that decay rates were different in the past except to salvage some creationist notions.


Or to support Darwin and Charles Lyell.

Tarski wrote:You absolutely unequivocally do not know what you are talking about.
Real scientists have always crosscorrelated evidence from different branches of physical science. The fact that they line up when analysed with sufficient care is what gives us our justified confidence. You are reading crappy fringe pseudo-science.


Again that is not true. Study anomalies in just about all areas of science and you will find many who just look the other way.

Tarski wrote:Scientists use evidence, analysis and logic to obtain such results (assuming they pass the test of time).
But you just knew it by magical intuition---right?


No, it happens to fit my world view based on a spiritual understanding. I may be wrong in my projections and ideas about the past. I don't know but I refuse to accept that others somehow have some magic ball about the past.

Tarski wrote:http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/sun-082310.html

This is has yet to be checked and has not withstood the test of time. But you like it so you accept it wholesale. LOL


This is good. Let us wait 500 years to let the dust settle. But by the same token we should throw out most of assumed knowledge for the same test of time.

Tarski wrote:You of all people should sit and wait since you haven't any expertise or even scientific sensibility.


Is it a measure of a person to have scientific sensibility? I think it is a measure of a person to have a relationship with God. We just have a different view of things.
_Tarski
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Tarski »

Franktalk wrote:
What you say may be true. .

No it isn't I was being sarcastic. It isn't true because (like you) I was just throwing around words.
Not so. Have you heard of uniformitarianism?

I have not only heard of it, I understand it and it's limitations and context.

It absolutely is not the idea that there is no change or flux in the physical world.

It is similar in spirit to the assumption that it is the heart that pumps blood in the millions of mammals that we haven't looked inside, based on the few we have looked inside. No reason to think otherwise, and the assumption explains things nicely.
Similarly, we assume that this was true of mammals even before we first understood the role of the heart.

The thing about such assumptions is that we make them for two reasons.
1) There is no reason to assume otherwise.
2) The assumption continues to work on multiple fronts, in multiple correlated sciences from atomic theory to geology to biology. Decade after decade of increasing and consistent knowledge leading to working technology, medicine and deeper theoretical understanding. No woolly ad hoc religiously motivated fringe idea comes close to doing the same. Such ideas only come on the scene to play the role of comforting someone and are never incorporated into the network of real knowledge--because they don't fit.

The rest of your responses were even worse and only serve to prove what is already clear. You are scientifically and philosophically clueless.

I wouldn't care except that I know that you are probably filling young minds with this nonsense thereby deepening the trouble we already have with scientific literacy and critical thinking in the country.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Franktalk
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Franktalk »

Tarski,

"In the philosophy of naturalism, the uniformitarianism assumption is that the same natural laws and processes that operate in the universe now, have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism_(science)

So unlike your example where one can open the chest of an animal to verify it has a heart one can not verify an assumption of the past. Why is it that when I bring up this issue the science types deny the assumed past based on NO change to the systems we see today. I thought better of you. Are you so fixed in your thinking that you assume we have enough trace evidence of the past to make the giant leap:

"No reason to think otherwise, and the assumption explains things nicely."

With this kind of thinking we would still be in caves. Well at least in your world we would be in caves.
_DrW
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _DrW »

Franktalk,

Looks like it is time to remind you again, because you appear to have forgotten again, that it is mainstream math and science, the kind that Tarski teaches, and the kind that several folks on this board (including myself) work at professionally, that results in the technological progress from which much of humanity benefits.

Your kind of "woo woo" - make it up as you go along - pseudo-scientific religion-based approach to understanding the world around you may be amusing, but it is completely non-productive in terms of moving civilization forward.

It is clear to some of us that you get a lot of your ideas about how the world works from pseudo-scientific creationist and religionist websites. You do not seem to grasp the fact that most of what you talk about on this board is not science, and on the rare occasions when it is, it is clear that you do not understand what you are talking about.

I have asked you on past occasions to name a single tangible advance in technology that has come from biblical creation science, or to name any previously unknown scientific fact that was revealed in the scriptures, Mormon or otherwise. (Do you realize that God could not even get the number for pi right in the scriptures?)

In any case, you have failed to do so. The reason is simple: it cannot be done. Does it not bother you to have nothing to show, no demonstrable benefit to humankind whatsoever, from the approach to reality in which you appear to have invested so much?

IIR, you claim to be an engineer, but I really have to wonder what kind of work you do or how effective you can be at any kind of analytical math or science based occupation with your "woo woo" worldview and the associated deficits in comprehension, logic and reasoning that you exhibit on this board.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Franktalk
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Franktalk »

DrW wrote:Franktalk,

...I have asked you on past occasions to name a single advance in science that has come from biblical creation science, or for any previously unknown scientific fact that was revealed in the scriptures, Mormon or otherwise. You have failed to do so. Does it not bother you to have nothing to show, no demonstrable benefit to humankind whatsoever, from the approach to reality in which you have invested so much?...


It won't mean anything to you but for the record I will answer this. In my world view the physical world is a subset of a much larger reality that is unseen and spiritual based. In that reality God has set a stage for us to learn the difference between good and evil in an environment that is safe and has small forces. A reality in which we can make mistakes which affect our temporary physical bodies but enhances our spirit through the learning process. To have a physical body as a cover for the spirit allows us to interact with each other on a plane of existence that the spirit alone can't do. This extention of our senses so to speak into a physcal realm is a gift from God so we can enjoy a full measure of the experiences available. But the learning experience has been established to sort out those who would abuse the physical experience and turn it into the very evil we are to learn to avoid. When one cast off the world and embarks on a journey into the spiritual world one does not remove themself from the physical world they just place it in proper context. The physical world does not rule them and the physical world is viewed as the tool that it is. God has chosen faith as the bridge from a physical world view to a spiritual world view. Faith that more exist for us to embrace as the greater reality. The question you asked about support of the physical world from the spiritual world is answered by just understanding this path. Support for the physical world from the spiritual would be a stumbling block for many. Few souls actually make the journey as it is. What you ask would make that path more difficult. I don't think physical support for the physical world will be coming from the spirit world. It would not make sense. It only would make sense to someone who is encased in the physical world and wishes to embrace it even more.
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _DrW »

Franktalk wrote:
DrW wrote:Franktalk,

...I have asked you on past occasions to name a single advance in science that has come from biblical creation science, or for any previously unknown scientific fact that was revealed in the scriptures, Mormon or otherwise. You have failed to do so. Does it not bother you to have nothing to show, no demonstrable benefit to humankind whatsoever, from the approach to reality in which you have invested so much?...


It won't mean anything to you but for the record I will answer this.

Your response does mean something to me. It confirms my earlier judgment that you have a woo woo worldview. Glad that it works for you.

However, along with Tarski, and I am sure others, I worry that your kind of undisciplined and anti-intellectual nonsense has the potential to further degrade the already dismal outlook for science and math education and understanding in the US.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Yoda

Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Yoda »

Dr. W. wrote:Your response does mean something to me. It confirms my earlier judgment that you have a woo woo worldview. Glad that it works for you.

However, along with Tarski, and I am sure others, I worry that your kind of undisciplined and anti-intellectual nonsense has the potential to further degrade the already dismal outlook for science and math education and understanding in the US.


That is because you do not have the ability to compartmentalize logic and religion. For some reason, you think that it is intellectually disingenous to do so. There are many of us who disagree.

I am a Higher Education Computer Science Instructor. The programming methology I focused on when I got my Masters was entrenched in logic and patterns.

I go to Church and participate in the LDS religion for very different purposes. I believe in God. I worship him there. I serve through teaching music and playing the piano, which is another talent God has given me. It has nothing to do with logic. It doesn't need to.
_Franktalk
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Franktalk »

The whole issue about spirituality rest with a self determined limit on investigation. If one does not believe there are pathways to a greater reality then one will never even try and take a step forward. The physical world is comfortable and gives many a sense of security. The spirit world is full of pitfalls and one opens themself up to evil by taking that first step. It is my belief that many run back to the comfort of the physical world after taking that first most uncomfortable step. There is a degree of discomfort and that feeling of a strange new ground. But those who love God and seek to be close to Him will brave that transition period. Those who just play with spirituality and do not have that motivation with God ( a relationship ) as their goal will either seek the power of evil or run in fear. This is not an easy thing to do and many fail when they say they seek yet fail. Then we also have many who say they have tried yet are very attached to the world. They fail in all they attempt and then annouce that the spirit world does not exist. They are correct in that the spirit world does not exist for them and never will until they cast off the world. In scripture 1 John describes the steps to a spirit filled life. Paul describes the need to cast off the world in much of his writings. I have found that most believers love the Word but do not cast off the world. They instead try and keep the commandments and by works seek the blessings of God. This is difficult to do and is respected in scripture. They too are mocked by many and suffer with trials in the world. For the entire church history the faithful have been tested and some even to death. Yet the church and faith survives. We all have a calling but some turn down the volume of that calling until they no longer hear it. It is a choice.
_Drifting
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Re: Spirituality or just emotion...?

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:The whole issue about spirituality rest with a self determined limit on investigation.



...and there we have it folks.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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