Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_DrW]

Your response does mean something to me. It confirms my earlier judgment that you have a woo woo worldview. Glad that it works for you.

However, along with Tarski, and I am sure others, I worry that your kind of undisciplined and anti-intellectual nonsense has the potential to further degrade the already dismal outlook for science and math education and understanding in the US.

That is because you do not have the ability to compartmentalize logic and religion. For some reason, you think that it is intellectually disingenous to do so. There are many of us who disagree.

I am a Higher Education Computer Science Instructor. The programming methology I focused on when I got my Masters was entrenched in logic and patterns.

I go to Church and participate in the LDS religion for very different purposes. I believe in God. I worship him there. I serve through teaching music and playing the piano, which is another talent God has given me. It has nothing to do with logic. It doesn't need to.

I do have the ability to compartmentalize logic and religion, and did so for many years. As a professional scientist and a Mormon, I was more or less able to adopt the Steven J. Gould concept that science and religion are "non-overlapping magisteria".

This artificial compartmentalization worked until I began to realize how much of Mormonism is based on lies, and how corrosive it can be to realize that one's core beliefs are based on these demonstrated falsehoods.

If both logic and science make it clear that the foundational claims of Mormonism are simply not true, why would one continue to profess belief in them?

You claim to believe in God. When people say that they believe in God, I often ask them which God that would be. Is it the angry and vengeful God of the Old Testament, or the God of the New Testament? Is it the flesh and blood anthropomorphic Mormon God Elohim? If it is the Mormon God, is it the one described in the Book of Mormon, or the one revealed in the Book of Abraham who lives near Kolob, or is it the God of the Doctrine and Covenants who talks directly with Joseph Smith and tells him to have sex with teenagers and take other men's wives?

In the end each believer has their own concept of God. Each gives God different attributes and/or understands these ascribed attributes in different ways. The fact that there are so many denominations should make it obvious that these religions are culturally defined man-made constructs. Once that realization is reached, it should then be clear that these religions must operate on the basis of shared delusion. They simply cannot all be "right". Evidence shows that none of them are right.

Getting back to your stated ability to compartmentalize logic and religion; does it not bother you to freely admit that your religion is not logical? Don't the internal inconsistencies, demonstrated lying and deceit of the founders and early leaders, and doctrines that constantly change in the face of new knowledge or cultural awareness throw up a few red flags for you?

Don't you get tired of having to continually make excuses and rationalizations every time you come across a previously unrecognized lie or misrepresentation by the LDS Church? I know that I did, starting in Seminary when I had to state, in writing, that the biblical Garden of Eden was located in Daviss County, MO in order to pass a test. I knew when I wrote this that it was not true. I realized later that, even in Seminary, Mormon kids were being conditioned to lie for the Lord.

Do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans and that they were created by God out of the dust and lived in Daviss County, MO less than 10,000 years ago? If not, then on what basis can you believe anything else that Joseph Smith said about his "revelations"?

I left the LDS Church as a matter of personal integrity. Quite frankly, I don't understand how anyone who reads a board like this one and has been exposed to the uncorrelated truth about the LDS Church can continue to be a part of it.

I mean no offense, but when you claim that the inability to compartmentalize logic and religion constitutes some kind of intellectual deficit, I feel that a frank response is justified.

[Guest]

Liz.

I know of no other Christian religion that has a belief that God, through spiritual inspiration, decided to highlight an individuals level of worthiness through the colour of their skin.
The God Mormon's believe in did that.

You either have to believe that God did that, or accept that the Book of Mormon and the Church Prophet's (deliberately or otherwise) misled you about that - unwittingly making you complicit in religious discrimination based on race.

This discrimination based on race continues today.
Either you believe that your God through spiritual inspiration, has decreed that you should not marry outside of your race. Or accept that the Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 and therefore the Church Prophets and Leaders (deliberately or otherwise) are misleading you about that - unwittingly making you complicit in the continuance of religious discrimination based on race.

If you are able to compartmentalise all of the other obstacles to a rational mind being able to make Mormonism fit as a belief. This on its own should be enough to make you see that your God is not a nice person. That, or your chosen vehicle for transporting your worship is not inspired through spirituality.

Now let's say that you don't believe in Mormonism, not one jot, but that you do believe in God and feel that God doesn't mind which organisation you choose.
Do you think He would want you to be seen to be supporting an organization that racially discriminates? For instance, what would you think of someone who was a member of the KKK even if you didn't know how much they believed in the tenets of that organization?

And by the way - the exact same thing can be said about me as I still attend!
I am wrestling with this one as it troubles me greatly.

[_Yoda]

I mean no offense, but when you claim that the inability to compartmentalize logic and religion constitutes some kind of intellectual deficit, I feel that a frank response is justified.

It doesn't feel great to be thought of as intellectually deficient, does it? Particularly when, someone such as yourself practices science for a living.

Now you understand how it feels when you do the same to those of us on the board who choose to practice religion.

Maybe we don't believe everything. Maybe, it is a question of weighing the good and the bad, and determining that we get more good out of our religion than bad. Maybe those measurements are determinations that are personal, and are different for everyone.

Food for thought.

[_Yoda]

Now let's say that you don't believe in Mormonism, not one jot, but that you do believe in God and feel that God doesn't mind which organisation you choose.
Do you think He would want you to be seen to be supporting an organization that racially discriminates? For instance, what would you think of someone who was a member of the KKK even if you didn't know how much they believed in the tenets of that organization?

The modern Church does not racially discriminate. The KKK still does. I attend the modern Church, not the Church you speak of.

Look, Drifting, you and I have had conversations about this before. You know that I do not believe everything preached in LDS doctrine, particularly the doctrine you cited in your post.

I do, however, recognize that the Church has gone through changes, and will continue to go through more changes as "the old guard dies out".

I do believe in the fundamental gospel of Jesus Christ, and I don't believe that He cares where I choose to go to Church on Sunday. I think that He DOES care about the relationship I have with my family. If that relationship is ultimately strengthened by my attending the LDS Church, then so be it. You, Dr. W., and anyone else who disagrees can think what they choose.

[_Drifting]

Now let's say that you don't believe in Mormonism, not one jot, but that you do believe in God and feel that God doesn't mind which organisation you choose.
Do you think He would want you to be seen to be supporting an organization that racially discriminates? For instance, what would you think of someone who was a member of the KKK even if you didn't know how much they believed in the tenets of that organization?

The modern Church does not racially discriminate.

Liz, believe me when I say I'm not picking a fight.
I struggle with a lot of the same things that you do in terms of issues with the Church.

But the modern Church does still teach people to discriminate on, amongst other things, the basis of race. This is from a current teaching manual;

“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).

This is what the Church is currently teaching my, your, every other members, children aged 12 to 17 years old. Pick your eternal partner on the basis that they match your wealth, intellect and yes, you've guessed it, RACE.

[_DrW]

I mean no offense, but when you claim that the inability to compartmentalize logic and religion constitutes some kind of intellectual deficit, I feel that a frank response is justified.

It doesn't feel great to be thought of as intellectually deficient, does it? Particularly when, someone such as yourself practices science for a living.

Now you understand how it feels when you do the same to those of us on the board who choose to practice religion.

Maybe we don't believe everything. Maybe, it is a question of weighing the good and the bad, and determining that we get more good out of our religion than bad. Maybe those measurements are determinations that are personal, and are different for everyone.

Food for thought.

I was not offended in the least by your compartmentalization comment. I see it as the only possible response by believing Mormons to the issue of science vs Mormonism. I simply felt that a frank response was justified.

My wife and I have had these same conversations. She realizes that she was in deep denial about the manifold problems with the Church and has slowly graduated from TBM to NOM status.

Her general mood and affect have improved along with the change and she enjoys life a lot more. She can still take advantage of what she sees as the social benefits of the LDS community without being saddled with all of the corrosive cog dis.

As she recognizes and admits how much better things are since I left the Church, she can see the downside of self-delusion. It has been hard for her to make the shift and it takes time, but she is making progress. She is more confident, less judgmental and, quite frankly, has a lot more fun now than she did as a TBM.

In fact, she just headed out by herself on a six week vacation. She would have never done that as a TBM.

[_Yoda]

But the modern Church does still teach people to discriminate on, amongst other things, the basis of race. This is from a current teaching manual;

Quote:
“We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question” (“Marriage and Divorce,” in 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1977], p. 144).


This is what the Church is currently teaching my, your, every other members, children aged 12 to 17 years old. Pick your eternal partner on the basis that they match your wealth, intellect and yes, you've guessed it, RACE.

I think that you and I are just interpreting this differently. Who knows? Maybe your interpretation is the "correct" one that the Church intends. Maybe mine is. I don't know. These are my thoughts on that particular quote. And, this is also what we have taught our children.

Notice that the quote uses the word "generally", not "in all cases", when it is talking about similar backgrounds. If you were looking at it from a resume perspective, it would be a "preferred", not a "required". LOL

The quote makes a much stronger case in terms of religious similarity, which it particularly singles out.

You are married. I am married. Let's take a look at a couple of things. Having been married for 25 years, I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of ups and downs in a marital relationship, no matter what previous background similarities exist, or don't exist.

With racial differences come cultural differences. This is not a bad thing..but it is real, and we should open our eyes to the reality of that fact. Is marrying someone of a different race or culture a bad thing? Certainly not. However, there are unique challenges associated with marrying people of a different culture. It does take more work, and more adjustment. That is simply a reality. So, is it a little easier to marry someone who has been brought up similarly to yourself? Of course it is! Is it a make or break deal? No!

I see nothing wrong with anyone dating someone of a different race, or a different culture. But they do need to go into it with their eyes open, and be able to accept the different cultures. It is also important to recognize that the cultures are different, and both parties are going to have to make adjustments in order for the relationship to work. Does that mean that if the right person for you comes along who happens to be a different race or culture, you shouldn't pursue a relationship with them? Of course not!

My daughter is currently seriously dating a young man who is black. He is one of the nicest young men I have ever met. He treats her wonderfully, and I have a strong feeling that they will likely get married in the near future. Does this upset me? Not in the least. I want my daughter to be happy. I want the young man to be happy. However, my daughter does recognize that there are differences in their heritage, in their culture. There is nothing wrong with that, and, there are exciting new things that they can learn about each other. But I think it is important to face those differences, and not be so "politically correct" that we ignore the differenes, and pretend that they do not exist, and do not factor into the success or failure of long term relationships.

[_Drifting]

My daughter is currently seriously dating a young man who is black. He is one of the nicest young men I have ever met. He treats her wonderfully, and I have a strong feeling that they will likely get married in the near future. Does this upset me? Not in the least. I want my daughter to be happy. I want the young man to be happy. However, my daughter does recognize that there are differences in their heritage, in their culture. There is nothing wrong with that, and, there are exciting new things that they can learn about each other. But I think it is important to face those differences, and not be so "politically correct" that we ignore the differenes, and pretend that they do not exist, and do not factor into the success or failure of long term relationships.

I think that's great.
But note that it is against what the Church recommends!

[_Yoda]

My daughter is currently seriously dating a young man who is black. He is one of the nicest young men I have ever met. He treats her wonderfully, and I have a strong feeling that they will likely get married in the near future. Does this upset me? Not in the least. I want my daughter to be happy. I want the young man to be happy. However, my daughter does recognize that there are differences in their heritage, in their culture. There is nothing wrong with that, and, there are exciting new things that they can learn about each other. But I think it is important to face those differences, and not be so "politically correct" that we ignore the differenes, and pretend that they do not exist, and do not factor into the success or failure of long term relationships.

I think that's great.
But note that it is against what the Church recommends!

l think that you may have missed the point of my post, though. A recommendation is just that...a recommendation. A guide. It is very different from a commandment, or something set in stone.

In general, would I say that a marriage between two young people who came from the same background might be less likely to divorce? Yes. Is that different from saying that this is ALWAYS the case, or that someone should NEVER marry someone of a different culture? No. It is very different.

The article that you are citing the quote from is about divorce, and ways to prevent divorce. My interpretation is that the Church was merely stating that a marriage to someone who you have more things in common with is a little easier than a marriage where you have many cultural differences to overcome. Is that a wrong statement? I don't think so. Nor do I find it an offensive or racist statement.

[_Drifting]

I think that's great.
But note that it is against what the Church recommends!

l think that you may have missed the point of my post, though. A recommendation is just that...a recommendation. A guide. It is very different from a commandment, or something set in stone.

In general, would I say that a marriage between two young people who came from the same background might be less likely to divorce? Yes. Is that different from saying that this is ALWAYS the case, or that someone should NEVER marry someone of a different culture? No. It is very different.

The article that you are citing the quote from is about divorce, and ways to prevent divorce. My interpretation is that the Church was merely stating that a marriage to someone who you have more things in common with is a little easier than a marriage where you have many cultural differences to overcome. Is that a wrong statement? I don't think so. Nor do I find it an offensive or racist statement.

I think there is a difference between what you and I can rationalise as adults when told inter racial marriage is not recommended and what a 12, 13, 14 year old boy or girl will interpret it as. I'm going with them perceiving it to be a clear instruction of 'don't' do it.

The article I am quoting from is lesson 31 'Choosing an Eternal Partner' of the Aaronic Priesthood teaching manual 3.