Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_ldsfaqs]

The part that interests me the most is this:

So, we are trying to create an offering that will address these issues and be available for the public at large and to the church leaders, because many of them don’t have answers either. It can be very disappointing to church members.

It depends upon the specific issue of course, but their attempt to create offerings that address the big issues will fail because satisfactory answers don't exist.

Your statement is simply false..... As someone who's both a convert to the Church and who has left it being anti-mormon and anti-religion, your statement is simply a big lie and the fantasy of your current mindset and viewpoints, not the actual truth.

As someone who's been there, satisfactory answers and the actual truth DO in fact exist for every issue. Anti-mormon "truths" are not the actual truth at all, I should know, because I've been there.

[_Morley]

...Perhaps it's time for me to finally try to write it all out.

Please do. Fascinating idea: "Can Grace Save Mormonism?"

[_Quasimodo]

Your statement is simply false..... As someone who's both a convert to the Church and who has left it being anti-mormon and anti-religion, your statement is simply a big lie and the fantasy of your current mindset and viewpoints, not the actual truth.

As someone who's been there, satisfactory answers and the actual truth DO in fact exist for every issue. Anti-mormon "truths" are not the actual truth at all, I should know, because I've been there.

ldsfaqs, please consider dropping "lie" from your vocabulary, altogether. I don't believe that anyone here (other than yourself) is lying. People will disagree with you, but that is not lying. They may be mistaken, but that is not lying.

Saying that someone is telling lies is a very nasty insult and usually not true. It seems you use the word to accuse others of your own sins. It shows.

[_moksha]

Years ago on the former MAD board I suggested that a new group alternative to the Gospel Doctrine class be created for struggling members. Found out two things from apologists:

1. There was no need for such a group
2. The Church frowns on member participation in such groups.

Unless the current apologists are permanently shifted into denial mode, it might be helpful if they could somehow pass along this idea to be mulled over by Church decision makers.

Information and retrieval usage will keep growing. Clever arguments will not stem the problem of people finding out about past history and actions. Open acknowledgment is the best defense, as well as showing people that the Church is a positive force in the world.

For what it is worth, the path taken by the Community of Christ ripped the RLDS community apart, but it has also set them on a smoother path.

[_bcspace]

Why would we or should we? The prophecy says nothing about membership numbers.

Filling all the earth, sure. In an extremely diluted fashion.

Light on a hill yes. Salt and yeast, yes.

[_bcspace]

Mormons ARE inconsequential.

Seem to be disproportionately represented in government currently....

[_Zelder]

The end is not near, senior LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday.

Today’s youths can look forward to "getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren," Packer told more than 20,000 Mormons gathered in the giant LDS Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City.

The end of what? It's such a vague statement. I suppose people will be getting married and having kids from now until the end of the millenium and beyond.

[_Drifting]

The end is not near, senior LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday.

Today’s youths can look forward to "getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren," Packer told more than 20,000 Mormons gathered in the giant LDS Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City.

The end of what? It's such a vague statement.

It would be a vague statement, but for the fact that it was an Apostle of the Lord speaking officially to members of the Church during a session about matters relating to God and salvation. When seen in that context the phrase 'the end' becomes a tad clearer don't you think?

[_bcuzbcuz]

One has to ask if Elder Jensen was exaggerating when he said it was an apostasy akin to the Kirtland era apostasy. Bcspace?

He didn't say that. He said "since", not akin. It was the questioner who brought up "droves". It illustrates what I said, there are facts and then there lies, rumors, and innuendo surrounding those facts most intentional imho, some perhaps like in this case, unintentional.

Not that, but it seems that the questioners, who only have anecdotal information, are assuming people are leaving "in droves" over historical information and MKJ is certainly not acknowledging to what degree that is the case. My own experience (also anecdotal) remains that this type of apostasy on it's own is rare. When someone trys to leave because of some sin or offense (also sin), that is when they add unbelief to justify. Some type sin, immorality or otherwise, is always what it boils down to and it happened well before unbelief.

I've listened to the tape of the Q and A. I didn't hear Jensen correct the questioner as to the usage of the word "droves". But then again that isn't really the issue.

My now deceased wife and I left the church, not over issues on the internet, nor about problems with other people's living according to church doctrine. We left, and took our six children with us, and even asked to have our names erased from church membership (this was not done since we were not actively working against or preaching against the church).

My wife left because of the church's policy towards those with the " curse of Canaan". Genetics were in a fledgling state at that time so the genetic record that traces us all back to Africa were basiclly unknown but she felt passionately about equal treament to all people. It doesn't matter that Kimball changed the policy, the policy was wrong and it took the church 150 years to figure that out.

I left after reading several books about Freemasonry and all their symbols and ordinances. Even a blind man can see that temple ceremonies are exact copies of free mason mumble jumble, right down to the oathes and swearing one's life. Simple research into freemasonry exposes their ceremonies as imaginative smoke and mirrors.

I spent over 30 yeras of active service with many callings including a mission so I wasn't just some fumbling newbie trying to understand the church. Had I had access to the internet I probably would have left much earlier.

So you can argue "droves" or "not droves", it doesn't matter. Some people will stay with the church, just the same as some people stay with a career that is a total failure, simply because they dare not take the step into reality. and I understand that. Life was much simpler when someone else could supply ready answers to many of life's difficult problems. But once you can no longer accept the authority as an authority, there is no other way than out.

[_MCB]

Some people will stay with the church, just the same as some people stay with a career that is a total failure, simply because they dare not take the step into reality. and I understand that. Life was much simpler when someone else could supply ready answers to many of life's difficult problems.

I appreciate that analogy.