Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Themis]

Is the rise in inactivity a Mormon-only problem?

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it’s my impression that most (if not all) of the mainstream churches in the US are experiencing a similar decline in activity.

Inactivity has always been a problem for all church's. People leave or stop going for a variety of reasons. The problem for the LDS church is a rise in people leaving for historical problems, which is not an issue for most other christian groups.

[Guest]

Is the rise in inactivity a Mormon-only problem?

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it’s my impression that most (if not all) of the mainstream churches in the US are experiencing a similar decline in activity.

Inactivity has always been a problem for all church's. People leave or stop going for a variety of reasons. The problem for the LDS church is a rise in people leaving for historical problems, which is not an issue for most other christian groups.

Good point. Lutherans aren't leaving because Luther was an antisemitic douchebag. Luther's behavior is irrelevant to their faith.

[_Themis]

The problem is, Mormonism isn't "just as wrong as anyone else" in terms of e.g. the historicity of the Book of Mormon or the provenance of the Book of Abraham.

I would agree with this, and what I have to propose would not be much help to issues with the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham.

Nevertheless, historical difficulties unrelated to the religion's alleged ancient scriptural texts are a testimony-shattering problem. I cannot discuss the fact that Joseph Smith hid some of his polygamous marriages from Emma with my LDS in-laws the same way I can discuss Aimee Semple McPherson's likely affairs with my evangelical cousins. Misbehavior on the part of LDS leaders is viewed as threatening information and treated with extreme hostility and suspicion by believing members who don't want their testimonies imperiled. The same is not true for a lot of other Christian traditions. I think the LDS church could change this if it wanted to.

The question directed at Elder Jensen and his response seemed to pertain to the church's historical issues. That's why I brought up my theory here in terms of what the church could do if it wanted to address this problem.

The problem I see here is not one so much of Joseph making big mistakes like having multiple affairs with other women. Other christian groups can handle this since their religion and it's truthfulness is not dependent on their leaders. With Joseph it is totally dependent. It's one big package. If Joseph had not claimed God in his affairs and made it part of his new religion, then it might have been possible. In fact, I think Joseph's marriage to young girls and others men's wives plays a large role in many leaving. It still does not deal with things like the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc which may be bigger players in why people are leaving in higher numbers.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Inactivity has always been a problem for all church's. People leave or stop going for a variety of reasons. The problem for the LDS church is a rise in people leaving for historical problems, which is not an issue for most other christian groups.

Good point. Lutherans aren't because Luther was an antisemitic douchebag. Luther's behavior is irrelevant to their faith.

These are both reasonable responses.

What's the proportion of Mormons who leave due to intellectual reasons versus those who leave for more general reasons, i.e. people who DCP would describe as "slacker apostates"? I have no way of verifying this, but I think the ratio of intellectuals to slackers is pretty small, well nigh infinitesimal.

The fact that many of us in this forum self-identify as Intellectual Apostates may lead us to think there are more of us than is the case.

[_Themis]

These are both reasonable responses.

What's the proportion of Mormons who leave due to intellectual reasons versus those who leave for more general reasons, i.e. people who DCP would describe as "slacker apostates"? I have no way of verifying this, but I think the ratio of intellectuals to slackers is pretty small, well nigh infinitesimal.

If the church has numbers, it's not telling us. I think the point of the OP is that the ratio is much higher then they would like, but the ratio is somewhat unimportant. The group DCP is referring to has always been there in most religions. Not that they have all left, but many just are not interested enough to go. It does not meet their interests. The real problem is the growing number who stop going over intellectual reasons. They are the member who would otherwise be your very active tithe paying member who is helping the church to grow. This could become a major problem fore the church. While coverts who stay active are important to the church's well being, it's those who grew up in the church who are the major backbone of the church. Losing to many of them will have very negative impacts on the church in the future. The church can't stop what is happening simply because the church is not what is claims and the information showing this is not to easy to get.

The fact that many of us in this forum self-identify as Intellectual Apostates may lead us to think there are more of us than is the case.

Possibly, but I have always known that those who leave for other reasons are the bigger group (at least in the past). They typically left do to lack of interest, so would not be interested in these forums. Those who leave for intellectual reasons do not necessarily lose interest in LDS issue for many good reasons. As far as numbers today, I don't count those who are converts since most leave shortly after joining. I look at those who have grown up in the church, or converts who have been active for many years. This is the relevant group. When I look at my extended family, most have stayed active. I think most kids do stay active in the church they grew up in. This is where the church is really going to hurt with intellectual issue.

[_Gentile Persuasion]

I don't post often, but Mr. Jensen's comments were so interesting that I hope you don't mind if I weigh in. A few points:

1. Search engine optimization, focus groups, and consultants: Why does the church's message need to be tested, massaged, and manipulated this way? Isn't the role of the church -- or any other church -- to proclaim what it believes to be true? The church is not responsible for whether people accept its message. That will be determined by the intellectual and spiritual response of the people who hear it.

2. In regard to what Mr. Jensen referred to as the delicate task of upholding the Brethren: This is not the role of a historian. A historian's job is to document, narrate, and attempt to interpret past events in a manner that is consistent with, among other things, good science. A historian is not allowed to cherry pick evidence. That's the propagandist's job.

3. Whether members are leaving in "droves" or not: If the Brethren consider this to be an important subject, they should discuss it with the rest of the church. The Brethren have the numbers, including meeting attendance, temple attendance, tithing, etc. What are they? If the Brethren do not wish to disclose them, why not? I doubt that it is because it just hasn't occurred to anyone to be more transparent about this.

4. The planned new "Answers to Gospel Questions": These answers will be either the same as those already offered by the apologists at FAIR and FARMS, or they will be different. If the same, why is there a special project to offer the same spectacularly unsatisfying arguments at, presumably, some new website? If they are different, why is the church not already proclaiming them?

Any new apologetic initiative must begin with draft arguments. These require a pencil, a piece of paper, and a bit of time to think. The church has a public relations department, fifteen presumed prophets, seers, and revelators, its own university, and nearly two centuries of apologetic tradition. If this task can be done at all, why hasn't it been done already?

[_Corpsegrinder]

If the church has numbers, it's not telling us. I think the point of the OP is that the ratio is much higher then they would like...

I agree, MKJ is dealing specifically with those who leave for intellectual reasons. The Slacker Factor (for lack of a better term) does not factor into MKJ's equation.

The group DCP is referring to has always been there in most religions. Not that they have all left, but many just are not interested enough to go. It does not meet their interests. The real problem is the growing number who stop going over intellectual reasons.

This is where I must disagree with MKJ. In my view, the Church's intellectual tunnel vision is causing it to apply the wrong solution to the wrong problem. What they fail to see is that people generally join Churches for other than intellectual reasons. If the Brethren cannot meet the extra-intellectual needs of these members, they will continue to leave. This is where the real problem lies.

In my view, certain Evangelical groups are much better at meeting these extra-intellectual needs than Mormons are. We could learn a thing or two from them.

Those who leave for intellectual reasons do not necessarily lose interest in LDS issue for many good reasons.

Again, I have to disagree with MKJ on this point. Intellectually-inclined Mormons are as capable of leaving for non-intellectual reasons as anybody else. There's no reason to hang around if you don't get anything in return for paying, praying, and obeying. This seems to be the point that MKJ--and the Brethren--fail to understand.

[_bcspace]

If the church has numbers, it's not telling us. I think the point of the OP is that the ratio is much higher then they would like...

I agree, MKJ is dealing specifically with those who leave for intellectual reasons.

I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't have such numbers, or at least not accurate ones.

[_Drifting]

If the church has numbers, it's not telling us. I think the point of the OP is that the ratio is much higher then they would like...

I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't have such numbers, or at least not accurate ones.

I agree.
But the specific data that is being used to determine that the Church is suffering from a significant apostasy seems to be:
a. The results of surveys and polls
b. The financial numbers that will give a clear indication of apostasy levels

[_Quasimodo]

Is the rise in inactivity a Mormon-only problem?

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it’s my impression that most (if not all) of the mainstream churches in the US are experiencing a similar decline in activity.

Yep, you are correct. Education and easy access to the cumulative wisdom of the world (internet) have made religion in general a hard sell. The LDS church has special vulnerabilities in this area.