Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Yoda]

I think there is a difference between what you and I can rationalise as adults when told inter racial marriage is not recommended and what a 12, 13, 14 year old boy or girl will interpret it as. I'm going with them perceiving it to be a clear instruction of 'don't' do it.

The article I am quoting from is lesson 31 'Choosing an Eternal Partner' of the Aaronic Priesthood teaching manual 3.

That is why it is important for US, as PARENTS, to discuss the lessons that our 12, 13, and 14 year old children are having in YM/YW and Sunday School. We raise our children...not the Church. And we can guide them in understanding the proper interpretations of these teachings.

[_Drifting]

I think there is a difference between what you and I can rationalise as adults when told inter racial marriage is not recommended and what a 12, 13, 14 year old boy or girl will interpret it as. I'm going with them perceiving it to be a clear instruction of 'don't' do it.

The article I am quoting from is lesson 31 'Choosing an Eternal Partner' of the Aaronic Priesthood teaching manual 3.

That is why it is important for US, as PARENTS, to discuss the lessons that our 12, 13, and 14 year old children are having in YM/YW and Sunday School. We raise our children...not the Church. And we can guide them in understanding the proper interpretations of these teachings.

I agree, but putting right the wrongs that are taught during Sunday School seems less efficient than the Church getting its teaching materials in order in the first place.

I guess we are drifting off topic, but is masterbation wrong and does it lead to homosexuality? Because they are being taught that too........

[_Yoda]

agree, but putting right the wrongs that are taught during Sunday School seems less efficient than the Church getting its teaching materials in order in the first place.

Agreed. And, I do think that we need to focus on ways to make the teaching materials more effective. I simply prefer to make changes from inside the organization. I know that the changes are made through baby steps, but I do see changes happening. In the meantime, being an involved parent is a huge way to leap over that hurdle. Is it by any means a perfect solution? No. But it is my way to remain a part of the Church, which is something that is important to me.

I guess we are drifting off topic, but is masturbation wrong and does it lead to homosexuality? Because they are being taught that too........

You're right. Delving into this topic really does need to be a separate thread. I may start one, or you are more than welcome to. I would not be opposed to a mature discussion on masturbation, and how it relates to the Church.

[_Tarski]

That is because you do not have the ability to compartmentalize logic and religion.

FrankTalk does anything but compartmentalize. His religious notions infect and indeed overtake his understanding of science. He makes all sorts of ridiculous claims that have to do with science. He promotes whatever fringe notions he needs to to provide pseudoscientific support for his spiritualistic worldview. For example, you don't promote a variable speed of light to get rid of antediluvian rainbows nor do you deny basic geological principles and so on.
You don't claim to know metaphysical things about the way spirit fits into the universe and so on.
He does.

[_marg]

Liz

I have a difficulty understanding why you would want to work from within to change things. To me one of the main problems with the Church is that it requires a maintenance of lies which can never be acknowledged. The whole system is founded upon lies which build upon each other. I don't believe you can change that. (by the way I'm not suggesting other religions are not founded upon lies, but on this board the focus is Mormonism)

From a woman's perspective, during the days when LDS polygamy was encouraged using religious beliefs, women were disrespected and essentially treated as if slaves. The church has never acknowledged polygamy abusive to women and children, not from God, and morally wrong..they have only abided by laws. I put responsibility on the church for the many young females who have been traded amongst men and treated like cattle to breed since the LDS inception in America, including what Warren Jeffs did. His rape of the young girl he was jailed for..I place blame on the church to a large extent..because they have never acknowledged wrong doing or any moral responsibility.

So from my perspective and I appreciate this may seem harsh, but anyone who currently supports the LDS church..is to some extent responsible for recent abuses perpetuated by the FLDS who are following what Smith started and instructed. The LDS church has not spoken out strongly against polygamy, they've done nothing to discourage the FLDS from their practice of it, and so their absence of doing so to some extent gives legitimacy to the FLDS's beliefs on this. it has helped Warren Jeffs and the FLDS perpetuate this abuse. The LDS church has a moral responsibility to come clean but I don't think it can...because the whole system is founded upon lies.

[_Yoda]

Liz

I have a difficulty understanding why you would want to work from within to change things. To me one of the main problems with the Church is that it requires a maintenance of lies which can never be acknowledged. The whole system is founded upon lies which build upon each other. I don't believe you can change that. (by the way I'm not suggesting other religions are not founded upon lies, but on this board the focus is Mormonism)

From a woman's perspective, during the days when LDS polygamy was encouraged using religious beliefs, women were disrespected and essentially treated as if slaves. The church has never acknowledged polygamy abusive to women and children, not from God, and morally wrong..they have only abided by laws. I put responsibility on the church for the many young females who have been traded amongst men and treated like cattle to breed since the LDS inception in America, including what Warren Jeffs did. His rape of the young girl he was jailed for..I place blame on the church to a large extent..because they have never acknowledged wrong doing or any moral responsibility.

So from my perspective and I appreciate this may seem harsh, but anyone who currently supports the LDS church..is to some extent responsible for recent abuses perpetuated by the FLDS who are following what Smith started and instructed. The LDS church has not spoken out strongly against polygamy, they've done nothing to discourage the FLDS from their practice of it, and so their absence of doing so to some extent gives legitimacy to the FLDS's beliefs on this. it has helped Warren Jeffs and the FLDS perpetuate this abuse. The LDS church has a moral responsibility to come clean but I don't think it can...because the whole system is founded upon lies.

I appreciate your views, Marg. I disagree with you on some of your points, and I will explain where I am coming from. I have some other things going on right now, and don't have time to lay out all of my points right now, but I will get back to this, either later this evening or tomorrow.

[Guest]

Liz

I have a difficulty understanding why you would want to work from within to change things. To me one of the main problems with the Church is that it requires a maintenance of lies which can never be acknowledged. The whole system is founded upon lies which build upon each other. I don't believe you can change that. (by the way I'm not suggesting other religions are not founded upon lies, but on this board the focus is Mormonism)

From a woman's perspective, during the days when LDS polygamy was encouraged using religious beliefs, women were disrespected and essentially treated as if slaves. The church has never acknowledged polygamy abusive to women and children, not from God, and morally wrong..they have only abided by laws. I put responsibility on the church for the many young females who have been traded amongst men and treated like cattle to breed since the LDS inception in America, including what Warren Jeffs did. His rape of the young girl he was jailed for..I place blame on the church to a large extent..because they have never acknowledged wrong doing or any moral responsibility.

So from my perspective and I appreciate this may seem harsh, but anyone who currently supports the LDS church..is to some extent responsible for recent abuses perpetuated by the FLDS who are following what Smith started and instructed. The LDS church has not spoken out strongly against polygamy, they've done nothing to discourage the FLDS from their practice of it, and so their absence of doing so to some extent gives legitimacy to the FLDS's beliefs on this. it has helped Warren Jeffs and the FLDS perpetuate this abuse. The LDS church has a moral responsibility to come clean but I don't think it can...because the whole system is founded upon lies.

marg, I don't agree that members are partially responsible for what Warren Jeffs did. I think that's too far a stretch. But I do agree that silent membership of an organization is by default acquiescence to whatever the Church practices and teachings are. Members are asked to sustain the leaders by a show of hands. To change the organization's fundamental beliefs and operating practices and principles (rather than local ward practices) from within a member would have to raise their hand in opposition when asked to sustain. I have yet to see a single example of where this has happened. Abstaining from the vote goes by unnoticed and so cannot be accepted as an attempt to change the Church.

Liz, when asked to sustain the Church leaders do you put your hand up, abstain, or put your hand up in opposition to the vote? You have stated that you hold a TR, which of course means you have said yes to fully sustaining the Church leaders. Or that you have lied to your Bishop in order to get one. I abstain, which I concede is cowardly on my part. However, I do not hold a current TR (that was my decision as I chose not to renew it) and when subsequently asked 'the questions' during meetings to discuss the questions I have about the Church, I answered them honestly and fully.

[_ldsfaqs]

Spirituality is closely connected to emotion, but it is not simply emotion nor even is emotion itself, let alone only such.

Given I've been on all sides of good and evil, religion and no religion, believer and non-believer, anti-mormon/anti-religion, etc. There is a very big difference between the Spirit of God which enlightens and teaches the mind and soul, and simply emotion which really doesn't teach or enlighten about anything other than ones moral consciousness or lack thereof.

The Spirit is closely associated with Revelation.... Emotion has nothing to do with Revelation.

[_Themis]

Spirituality is closely connected to emotion, but it is not simply emotion nor even is emotion itself, let alone only such.

Given I've been on all sides of good and evil, religion and no religion, believer and non-believer, anti-mormon/anti-religion, etc. There is a very big difference between the Spirit of God which enlightens and teaches the mind and soul, and simply emotion which really doesn't teach or enlighten about anything other than ones moral consciousness or lack thereof.

The Spirit is closely associated with Revelation.... Emotion has nothing to do with Revelation.

I tend to describe spirituality as thoughts and feelings. Emotions are feelings, but feelings involve more then just emotions. You use the words enlightenment or revelation, which I think involves both feelings and thoughts. The spiritual experience can range from soft and peaceful to very powerful and life changing. What I wonder is how anyone knows just what the brain and body are capable of creating.

[_Drifting]

Spirituality is closely connected to emotion, but it is not simply emotion nor even is emotion itself, let alone only such.

Given I've been on all sides of good and evil, religion and no religion, believer and non-believer, anti-mormon/anti-religion, etc. There is a very big difference between the Spirit of God which enlightens and teaches the mind and soul, and simply emotion which really doesn't teach or enlighten about anything other than ones moral consciousness or lack thereof.

The Spirit is closely associated with Revelation.... Emotion has nothing to do with Revelation.

I tend to describe spirituality as thoughts and feelings. Emotions are feelings, but feelings involve more then just emotions. You use the words enlightenment or revelation, which I think involves both feelings and thoughts. The spiritual experience can range from soft and peaceful to very powerful and life changing. What I wonder is how anyone knows just what the brain and body are capable of creating.

For those that have experienced being there at the birth of your own child.
That feeling that you/I had, was it spirituality or emotion?