Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_bcspace]

I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't have such numbers, or at least not accurate ones.

I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't have such numbers, or at least not accurate ones.

I agree.
But the specific data that is being used to determine that the Church is suffering from a significant apostasy seems to be:
a. The results of surveys and polls
b. The financial numbers that will give a clear indication of apostasy levels

The fact of the matter is that from within the Church the antiMormon presentation of LDS history usually comes second after another problem rears it's head. I would agree that in terms of new converts, there is a problem right off the bat with the antiMormon presentation of LDS history. That is almost always solved if they agree to hear our side.

So even though historical issues come second (or third, or fourth) in indivudal apostasy, it get's marked first or it's the only one marked because that is the settled rationalization that doesn't have to admit one's being offended or having committed adultery etc. And that is the reason why the Church is not going to have accurate figures.

[_Buffalo]

The fact of the matter is that from within the Church the antiMormon presentation of LDS history usually comes second after another problem rears it's head. I would agree that in terms of new converts, there is a problem right off the bat with the antiMormon presentation of LDS history. That is almost always solved if they agree to hear our side.

So even though historical issues come second (or third, or fourth) in indivudal apostasy, it get's marked first or it's the only one marked because that is the settled rationalization that doesn't have to admit one's being offended or having committed adultery etc. And that is the reason why the Church is not going to have accurate figures.

The king of Israel answered, “Tell him: ‘One who puts on his armor should not boast like one who takes it off.’”

[_Themis]

The fact of the matter is that from within the Church the antiMormon presentation of LDS history usually comes second after another problem rears it's head. I would agree that in terms of new converts, there is a problem right off the bat with the antiMormon presentation of LDS history. That is almost always solved if they agree to hear our side.

So even though historical issues come second (or third, or fourth) in indivudal apostasy, it get's marked first or it's the only one marked because that is the settled rationalization that doesn't have to admit one's being offended or having committed adultery etc. And that is the reason why the Church is not going to have accurate figures.

Gotta love the rationalizations of bcspace. Understandable for those like him who cannot face reality. :)

[_bcspace]

Gotta love the rationalizations of bcspace. Understandable for those like him who cannot face reality. :)

The information comes from the reality of doing interviews, Church courts, etc.

[_Themis]

This is where I must disagree with MKJ. In my view, the Church's intellectual tunnel vision is causing it to apply the wrong solution to the wrong problem. What they fail to see is that people generally join Churches for other than intellectual reasons. If the Brethren cannot meet the extra-intellectual needs of these members, they will continue to leave. This is where the real problem lies.

Religion does not have any mandates to meet the intellectual needs of people. They can do it on their own outside of religion. The intellectual problems for the LDS church involve it's truth claims. The evidence just does not support the church being what it claims. As such the problem is not going to get better.

[_Themis]

Gotta love the rationalizations of bcspace. Understandable for those like him who cannot face reality. :)

The information comes from the reality of doing interviews, Church courts, etc.

Not really. Your bias is in the extreme, and I doubt your observations have any accuracy. Many of us have done interviews and been involved in church courts. Most who leave are never in any church courts. Especially those who leave for intellectual reasons.

[_Corpsegrinder]

I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't have such numbers, or at least not accurate ones.

According to The Book of Mammon, the Church maintains detailed statistics on every conceivable aspect of its membership, both active and inactive.

[_Corpsegrinder]

Religion does not have any mandates to meet the intellectual needs of people. They can do it on their own outside of religion. The intellectual problems for the LDS church involve it's truth claims. The evidence just does not support the church being what it claims. As such the problem is not going to get better.

I agree, absolutely. In fact, I’m pretty sure you and I on the same side. :)

[_schreech]

The information comes from the reality of doing interviews, Church courts, etc.

LOL - I have a friend down here in socal that hosts regular ex/thinking/intelligent-mo gatherings. Typically, 50+ people show up just from south orange county. Not a single one of them has been to a church court and many of them have resigned. Every single person I have met at these events has left the church over history, politics or the idiocy of the current LDS culture...The fact that your view is so skewed by the handful of church "courts" you have attended is sad.

[_Corpsegrinder]

...The fact that your view is so skewed by the handful of church "courts" you have attended is sad.

bcspace, how many church courts do you attend in, say, a given week?