Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Drifting]

...The fact that your view is so skewed by the handful of church "courts" you have attended is sad.

bcspace, how many church courts do you attend in, say, a given week?

And how many of them let you off with just a slapped wrist and a few hail Joseph's?

[_bcspace]

bcspace, how many church courts do you attend in, say, a given week?

There's about 6 a year. And then there's people who come in to ask questions or make complaints (usually about their spouse). That happens every week.

And oh yes, I forgot. There are visits, mostly to the inactive; perhaps four or five a week. Had one of them tell me beer is allowed by the WoW recently.

[_Buffalo]

Had one of them tell me beer is allowed by the WoW recently.

Did you tell him that he's right?

[_bcspace]

Had one of them tell me beer is allowed by the WoW recently.

Did you tell him that he's right?

No but I didn't argue with him either. He's obviously trying to get rid of us by saying crazy things but I haven't felt he's ready for me to invite him to resign from the Church so I keep coming back. Better if he says it himself. That's what I do, I patiently wait for people to finally admit the truth about what they believe. Usually it happens within 30 minutes in an interview. Sometimes it takes years.

[_aranyborju]

The information comes from the reality of doing interviews, Church courts, etc.

Having been involved with several church courts myself from my time on the high council, I think you have to admit that almost every time a person actually attends the court it is because they want to stay in the church, but are being disciplined. When people walk away for intellectual reasons they rarely attend church courts because:

1. A court is never held...as the person never does anything to require one, or;

2. If a court is held because the member was openly speaking against the church...they don't attend because they no longer acknowledge the authority of their church leaders.

So that's a pretty poor pool to draw information from...just my opinion.

[_Buffalo]

No but I didn't argue with him either. He's obviously trying to get rid of us by saying crazy things but I haven't felt he's ready for me to invite him to resign from the Church so I keep coming back. Better if he says it himself. That's what I do, I patiently wait for people to finally admit the truth about what they believe. Usually it happens within 30 minutes in an interview. Sometimes it takes years.

But it's right there in the scriptures - mild barley drinks. Not just permitted, but recommended.

[_Runtu]

The king of Israel answered, “Tell him: ‘One who puts on his armor should not boast like one who takes it off.’”

I will never understand the need some people have to ascribe bad motivations (offense, adultery, and so on) to people they don't even know.

[_kairos]

As a nevermo with tbm wife, northern va, there has been no family-father,mother,sister brother converted in over 30 years. the ward is filled with chapel Mormons who only believe the Book of Mormon is what the church say it is-thus zero questions are raised in gospel doctrine class, yet there are more inactive families than active-that is new over the past year and says something abt leaving or going inactive. i can count 5 women who come with children whose husbands have become inactive-all were rm's and temple married and include lawyers, drs, military officers. the wives are beside themselves-this is not how it was supposed to be.
local leaders have no answers for the inactive husbands-btw they are not sinners having affairs-i know 3 personally and they talk to me as a nevermo-no answers locally they went to google and the rest is history.


most converts here in one of the wealthest communities in the usa are single men, wom, most very needy in terms of temporal assistance needed.


so there is a slow bleed- inactives are more numerous than active families; actives are staunch chapel Mormons questioning nothing, but there is also the fringe sitters at the gospel doctrine class -those who are anxious to raise questions but don't-peer pressure or whatever- and they are often found missing a few sundays in a row and are on the verge leaving.

just saying

[_Stormy Waters]

It's nice to see that the years of being able to teach 'milk before meat' are coming to an end. Hopefully any new converts will at least know the whole story. Although I doubt there are many that will convert after finding out the unfavorable aspects of church history.
I agree with AS, there is little or nothing the church can do to change this new dynamic. They could take the Community of Christ approach and gut the church of all the core doctrines and become more or less a regular Christian church, but that would lead to huge initial losses.
The church will not collapse, it will just slowly fade away over time. Since I still have family and friends in the church, I do worry about what they may do in their desperation to reverse this trend.

[_Doctor Scratch]

This is really a remarkable admission from Elder Jensen. He's basically saying what many of us have suspected for years--the the Church has been badly hemmorhaging members since the advent of the Internet. I would guess that this is really just the beginning, too. The same "informant" who told me that the Maxwell Institute had to slash its budget also said that the Brethren had become very concerned over the issue of dwindling tithing receipts. I know that others have speculated that the construction of the City Creek Mall is a sign that the Church is unstable, financially speaking, and this admission from Jensen would appear to lend credence to that hypothesis.

Some people in the thread have wondered how the apologists figure into all of this... I would say that, if anything, they have only caused more damage--particularly the *Mo*pologists. Perhaps the worst thing they've done is to establish a culture that immediately attacks doubting members for failing to "study up" on Church history. Not only does this tend to alienate struggling members, it also makes believing Latter-day Saints seem like reactionary cultists

All that said, I don't see any easy solutions for the Church. It may very well be that Mormonism will get its wish in terms of seeming more "Jewish." What I mean is, we may one day see a situation where there is a much wider spectrum of Mormon belief/membership. I.e., we'll have a core group of "orthodox" people who resemble today's TBMs, but they will be more on the fringes, with a big swath of "cafeteria" or "cultural" Mormons who constitute the majority. I have a hard time seeing how the hardcore, Internet Mormon style of fundamentalism is sustainable.