Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Buffalo]

This is really a remarkable admission from Elder Jensen. He's basically saying what many of us have suspected for years--the the Church has been badly hemmorhaging members since the advent of the Internet. I would guess that this is really just the beginning, too. The same "informant" who told me that the Maxwell Institute had to slash its budget also said that the Brethren had become very concerned over the issue of dwindling tithing receipts. I know that others have speculated that the construction of the City Creek Mall is a sign that the Church is unstable, financially speaking, and this admission from Jensen would appear to lend credence to that hypothesis.

Some people in the thread have wondered how the apologists figure into all of this... I would say that, if anything, they have only caused more damage--particularly the *Mo*pologists. Perhaps the worst thing they've done is to establish a culture that immediately attacks doubting members for failing to "study up" on Church history. Not only does this tend to alienate struggling members, it also makes believing Latter-day Saints seem like reactionary cultists

All that said, I don't see any easy solutions for the Church. It may very well be that Mormonism will get its wish in terms of seeming more "Jewish." What I mean is, we may one day see a situation where there is a much wider spectrum of Mormon belief/membership. I.e., we'll have a core group of "orthodox" people who resemble today's TBMs, but they will be more on the fringes, with a big swath of "cafeteria" or "cultural" Mormons who constitute the majority. I have a hard time seeing how the hardcore, Internet Mormon style of fundamentalism is sustainable.

+1

[_bcuzbcuz]

This is really a remarkable admission from Elder Jensen. He's basically saying what many of us have suspected for years--the the Church has been badly hemmorhaging members since the advent of the Internet. I would guess that this is really just the beginning, too. The same "informant" who told me that the Maxwell Institute had to slash its budget also said that the Brethren had become very concerned over the issue of dwindling tithing receipts. I know that others have speculated that the construction of the City Creek Mall is a sign that the Church is unstable, financially speaking, and this admission from Jensen would appear to lend credence to that hypothesis.

Some people in the thread have wondered how the apologists figure into all of this... I would say that, if anything, they have only caused more damage--particularly the *Mo*pologists. Perhaps the worst thing they've done is to establish a culture that immediately attacks doubting members for failing to "study up" on Church history. Not only does this tend to alienate struggling members, it also makes believing Latter-day Saints seem like reactionary cultists

All that said, I don't see any easy solutions for the Church. It may very well be that Mormonism will get its wish in terms of seeming more "Jewish." What I mean is, we may one day see a situation where there is a much wider spectrum of Mormon belief/membership. I.e., we'll have a core group of "orthodox" people who resemble today's TBMs, but they will be more on the fringes, with a big swath of "cafeteria" or "cultural" Mormons who constitute the majority. I have a hard time seeing how the hardcore, Internet Mormon style of fundamentalism is sustainable.

I was a long time Mormon faithful. I don't see the same apocalyptic ending you envision. The ability of the believer to disconnect from everything around is remarkable. Unless the believer is put under pressure that immediately affects them, they will pull down the blinds and ignore. I know, I've been there. It takes an issue or an event that completely engages before even an intellectual will disconnect from the church standard view.

Think of it as moving something from the back burner to the front of the stove (I'm talking old time wood burners). It takes something monumental before one realizes the porridge is cold. If a long time Mormon is not at a point of looking to the internet for answers, then they will look to the scriptures....and be praying for answers....with a given result.

The further we become removed from the time of Joe Smith, that is, with each year between now and then, the more difficult reality will be linked to fiction. The church elders are all praying that the church records will disappear in smoke. Nothing would be more satisfactory than a fire in the records department. Once Joe Smith can move in to distant past from not-so-distant past, the better off Mormonism will be.

[_Quasimodo]

I was a long time Mormon faithful. I don't see the same apocalyptic ending you envision. The ability of the believer to disconnect from everything around is remarkable. Unless the believer is put under pressure that immediately affects them, they will pull down the blinds and ignore. I know, I've been there. It takes an issue or an event that completely engages before even an intellectual will disconnect from the church standard view.

I think that you're correct. Long time believers will have a very difficult time leaving the Church. Many of their children will not.

In this age, the young have very easy access to information that their parents had never heard of. It seems that they are accessing it in greater numbers all the time.

In only a few generations, apostasy will be the norm. Only the few, very old members will still have the devotion you talk about.

[_Drifting]

Marlin doesn't seem to have appreciated the full impact this apostasy will have on the cleanliness of Chapels...

[_Buffalo]

Marlin doesn't seem to have appreciated the full impact this apostasy will have on the cleanliness of Chapels...

Won't someone think of the chapels?!!!

[_bcuzbcuz]

I was a long time Mormon faithful. I don't see the same apocalyptic ending you envision. The ability of the believer to disconnect from everything around is remarkable. Unless the believer is put under pressure that immediately affects them, they will pull down the blinds and ignore. I know, I've been there. It takes an issue or an event that completely engages before even an intellectual will disconnect from the church standard view.

I think that you're correct. Long time believers will have a very difficult time leaving the Church. Many of their children will not.

In this age, the young have very easy access to information that their parents had never heard of. It seems that they are accessing it in greater numbers all the time.

In only a few generations, apostasy will be the norm. Only the few, very old members will still have the devotion you talk about.

You're probably right. It won't be the current generation but future generations, future converts who will be affected by the internet. it takes an inquisitive mind to look for chinks in the armor.

[_Fence Sitter]

Just think how different the Church today would be if Moroni 10:5 read:

"And by the power of Google ye may know the truth of all things."

[_Gadianton]

The one thing that makes me skeptical about this information:

And the church is constantly running surveys, and employing consultants that do focus groups on a variety of topics, but especially on the ones that we are talking about right now, that are so sensitive to the faith of members

Surveys on the most sensitive topics? How does this work?

"Has your faith ever been troubled by the Book of Abraham?"
"are you aware of Joseph Smith's polygamy?"

[_DrW]

I don't post often, but Mr. Jensen's comments were so interesting that I hope you don't mind if I weigh in. A few points:

1. Search engine optimization, focus groups, and consultants: Why does the church's message need to be tested, massaged, and manipulated this way? Isn't the role of the church -- or any other church -- to proclaim what it believes to be true? The church is not responsible for whether people accept its message. That will be determined by the intellectual and spiritual response of the people who hear it.

2. In regard to what Mr. Jensen referred to as the delicate task of upholding the Brethren: This is not the role of a historian. A historian's job is to document, narrate, and attempt to interpret past events in a manner that is consistent with, among other things, good science. A historian is not allowed to cherry pick evidence. That's the propagandist's job.

3. Whether members are leaving in "droves" or not: If the Brethren consider this to be an important subject, they should discuss it with the rest of the church. The Brethren have the numbers, including meeting attendance, temple attendance, tithing, etc. What are they? If the Brethren do not wish to disclose them, why not? I doubt that it is because it just hasn't occurred to anyone to be more transparent about this.

4. The planned new "Answers to Gospel Questions": These answers will be either the same as those already offered by the apologists at FAIR and FARMS, or they will be different. If the same, why is there a special project to offer the same spectacularly unsatisfying arguments at, presumably, some new website? If they are different, why is the church not already proclaiming them?

Any new apologetic initiative must begin with draft arguments. These require a pencil, a piece of paper, and a bit of time to think. The church has a public relations department, fifteen presumed prophets, seers, and revelators, its own university, and nearly two centuries of apologetic tradition. If this task can be done at all, why hasn't it been done already?

This post is getting a bump because, although it is well thought out and makes several excellent points, nobody has commented on it.

I, for one, would like to hear more from folks like Gentile Persuasion on this board.

[_RockSlider]

Jensen is right, the Church needs a better online presence.

Yep. And I call upon those cowards at the MDB who are hiding their talent to come and post here and on other boards like this.

wow, first thing in three years I've heard bcspace say that I fully agree with and support!