Spirituality or just emotion...?

[_Buffalo]

For those that have experienced being there at the birth of your own child.
That feeling that you/I had, was it spirituality or emotion?

Emotion. All spirituality is just emotion, though.

[_Themis]

For those that have experienced being there at the birth of your own child.
That feeling that you/I had, was it spirituality or emotion?

Emotion. All spirituality is just emotion, though.

I disagree. Although I don't think spiritual expereinces come from some divine being, they do involve more then emotions. Not all feelings/sensations are emotions, and our thoughts/mind is also involved in many of these experiences. I think saying just emotions or warm fuzzies diminishes fruitful discussion about them.

[_marg]

marg, I don't agree that members are partially responsible for what Warren Jeffs did. I think that's too far a stretch.

I agree ..I shouldn't have referred to 'general membership' as being responsible. I should have been more specific and said 'anyone who has looked into the history of the church' and appreciates that certain past doctrines have nothing to do with any God ..such as polygamy..then by supporting the church ..abuses which have resulted historically and continue today..to some extent those members by supporting the church share some responsibility.

Liz said she's trying to change the church from within and my argument to her is that what has caused the problem can not be changed. God is at the helm of her church and directs through prophets. Therefore anything past prophets have taught can not according to the church be acknowledged morally wrong.

Warren Jeff's is only one person and not that atypical of how polygamy has been practiced by LDS & LFDS. The trading of young females amongst older men for sex has been sanctioned by the church since they first started the practice. One could argue laws should handle the abuse within polygamy but unfortunately the governments are up against fighting 'religious beliefs' of indoctrinated in individuals witha firmly entrenched belief that God is behind and supporting the church. The LDS church is extremely rich and powerful, if it as an organization doesn't acknowledge how abusive polygamy is and has been towards women and children that leaves the government as the lone fighter of the system. It is extremely difficult to legally go after violators of the law...when those practicing polygamy have been indoctrinated to accept polygamy as God sanctioned and/or don't know any other way of life. If the abused don't come forward for legal help and/or are unwilling to charge their abuser, it's very difficult for the law enforcers to do anything about the problem.

But I do agree that silent membership of an organization is by default acquiescence to whatever the Church practices and teachings are. Members are asked to sustain the leaders by a show of hands. To change the organization's fundamental beliefs and operating practices and principles (rather than local ward practices) from within a member would have to raise their hand in opposition when asked to sustain. I have yet to see a single example of where this has happened. Abstaining from the vote goes by unnoticed and so cannot be accepted as an attempt to change the Church.

[/quote]

Some things perhaps can be changed from within, but I think on the whole most of it can't. It stems from the authority comes from God, therefore no prophet can be morally wrong on any God sanctioned teaching. As I said, it's an organization built up with lies..the fundamental lie being God directs through prophets. And from there just about everything else is another lie piled on. It is simply wrong to teach the Book of Mormon is literal history.

So I don't know what it is Liz is trying to change or thinks she can change from within.

[_Buffalo]

I disagree. Although I don't think spiritual expereinces come from some divine being, they do involve more then emotions. Not all feelings/sensations are emotions, and our thoughts/mind is also involved in many of these experiences. I think saying just emotions or warm fuzzies diminishes fruitful discussion about them.

I disagree. We may be cognitively analyzing them as we experience them, but the experiences themselves are emotions.

[_sheryl]

I disagree. Although I don't think spiritual expereinces come from some divine being, they do involve more then emotions. Not all feelings/sensations are emotions, and our thoughts/mind is also involved in many of these experiences. I think saying just emotions or warm fuzzies diminishes fruitful discussion about them.

I disagree. We may be cognitively analyzing them as we experience them, but the experiences themselves are emotions.

Greetings everyone!

There is a body of understanding that we can inject into this discussion that just might be of some help.

What we call self in this world is described in many traditions as existing of three bodies - the physical body, the mental body, and the emotional or vital body. (Often we use the term vital, for emotion often times gives an unfavorably weighted understanding.) And so all that the self is and all that the self experiences, at the level most of us think of when we think of self, is through these three bodies and is of these three natures - physical, vital, and mental.

Thus any experience at this-world level of consciousness is physical, mental and vital.

Questions arise though on whether or not we exist or are connected to higher states of consciousness. Let's say for argument's sake that we are, that we can experience something beyond the physical, mental, or vital. We can experience something that is outside or behind, even within, these bodies, but because these bodies comprise self, self experiences them in and through the physical, mental and vital or feeling/intuitive, bodies. And so if we are able to look beyond and see a vision, or have a spiritual experience, at some level it becomes a physical, a mental, and a vital or feeling experience as well.

It is really impossible to separate ourselves into compartments. Thus anything that the self experiences becomes an emotional experience, for the vital/emotional body experiences it and reacts or better, responds.

And likewise, all that we experience whether outside of us or inside of us is a mental experience, for it comes through our mental bodies.

Enlightenment, though requires that we transcend the vital and the mental, our consciousness being able to move 'beyond' these bodies, so that we experience what is beyond the mind or mental and beyond the vital or emotional, but this will not be the experience for most of us. And so it is impossible to experience anything, for us, that is not both emotional/feeling/vital and mental.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_Themis]

I disagree. Although I don't think spiritual expereinces come from some divine being, they do involve more then emotions. Not all feelings/sensations are emotions, and our thoughts/mind is also involved in many of these experiences. I think saying just emotions or warm fuzzies diminishes fruitful discussion about them.

I disagree. We may be cognitively analyzing them as we experience them, but the experiences themselves are emotions.

I don't think I would consider things like the still small voice, premonitions, enlightenment, etc as emotions. Feelings and thoughts yes.

[_Themis]

What we call self in this world is described in many traditions as existing of three bodies - the physical body, the mental body, and the emotional or vital body.

Which is all part of the physical. Even though many think the physical and spiritual are separate, I think they are all part of the same.

Enlightenment, though requires that we transcend the vital and the mental, our consciousness being able to move 'beyond' these bodies, so that we experience what is beyond the mind or mental and beyond the vital or emotional, but this will not be the experience for most of us. And so it is impossible to experience anything, for us, that is not both emotional/feeling/vital and mental.

Sure there may be something beyond, but how do you know? How do you know what your body is capable of producing?

[_sheryl]

Which is all part of the physical. Even though many think the physical and spiritual are separate, I think they are all part of the same.

Sure there may be something beyond, but how do you know? How do you know what your body is capable of producing?

Greetings!

It is in and through the body that the unique individual awareness, what we call the personality, is created. But because what the 'body produces' is both within and beyond the body, when the body ceases to exist, what it has created - the unique individual awareness or personality - continues to exist. If it has not been liberated, this unique consciousness or awareness does not have the energy to exist long without the body and will eventually dissolve. If it has been liberated - thus recognizing and realizing the Eternal Spirit from which it evolved, from which the body through which it was created also evolved - it will likewise be Eternal and continue to exist in and through Eternity without the body.

This has been known for eons by Masters in various wisdom traditions.

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_Themis]

Greetings!

It is in and through the body that the unique individual awareness, what we call the personality, is created. But because what the 'body produces' is both within and beyond the body, when the body ceases to exist, what it has created - the unique individual awareness or personality - continues to exist. If it has not been liberated, this unique consciousness or awareness does not have the energy to exist long without the body and will eventually dissolve. If it has been liberated - thus recognizing and realizing the Eternal Spirit from which it evolved, from which the body through which it was created also evolved - it will likewise be Eternal and continue to exist in and through Eternity without the body.

This has been known for eons by Masters in various wisdom traditions.

Shalom!

Sheryl

And how do they know this?

[_Franktalk]

How can we know anything? Most of what we say we know we have not learned first hand. We learn most of what we know from others. We tend to trust others in certain areas and we have built a structure of institutions so that we may have some assurance that we what some groups says is something we should believe. But most of these groups we grew up with and have trusted our forefathers in their determination of trust. Some trust religious groups to provide answers and others trust government. Many trust science as a group to provide answers as well. But in almost every case and from all sources first hand knowledge is lacking. The exception to this is when the Holy Ghost comes into your soul and lets you know that your spirit is real and there is another Spirit as well. This is why the spiritual person is so strong in their belief. It is as if their belief transcends logic or reason. Knowledge obtained by first hand experience is very powerful.

You can call the spiritual experience anything you wish. A label does not change what it is. For me I trust the unseen powers of light. I do not trust the unseen powers of darkness. And as for man I trust based on each each communication and its content. Many in this world trust the institutions of man first. They deny the existence of the unseen so have no communication with it. This is normal and is the result of the flesh being weak. Since I am alone and do not have the backing of many men behind me I will be discounted not by what I say but by the lack of worldly support. For someone who has cast off the world I know well that the world hates me. But I am not the first that the world has hated.