Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Drifting]

Franktalk,

What I take away from your little sermon is that the Church looks foolish when judged according to reasonable and rational criteria. Given this indisputable fact, you therefore recommend that people leave all logic, reason and common sense behind, and instead continue in a desire to believe that a Church that was founded by a adulterous con-man and demonstrated liar is the one true Church upon th eface of the Earth today.

Your advice to others is to continue in this desire to believe until belief, however delusional, is achieved. You would then recommend that others somehow maintain this unfounded belief, against their own self interest, and in the face of exhaustive and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Sounds like a great plan to me.

Have I missed anything?

I fear you may be quoting doctrine....

[_bcuzbcuz]

If we judge the church with a worldly mind we will reject the church. But if we see the church through spiritual eyes our expectations are different.

I'm having difficulty separating "spiritual eyes" from "blinders".

You mean the spirit of god wants us to reject what we see and to concentrate only on what we want to see? Sounds pretty deceptive to me. Isn't deception the main tool of the opposing side?

[_Franktalk]

I'm having difficulty separating "spiritual eyes" from "blinders".

You mean the spirit of god wants us to reject what we see and to concentrate only on what we want to see? Sounds pretty deceptive to me. Isn't deception the main tool of the opposing side?

In your own way you have stated the path correctly.

Romans 8

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

1Co

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The logic and reason that I use is the same as anyone else. I just have a different data set that I reason from.

[_Gentile Persuasion]

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The logic and reason that I use is the same as anyone else. I just have a different data set that I reason from.

The things of the Spririt of God may appear as foolishness to the natural man, but that does not mean that all things that appear as foolishness are of the Spirit of God.

I respect anyone's religious beliefs or spiritual path. But logic and reason won't be good guides if somebody can choose his premises from any data set that he wishes to be true.

[_Inconceivable]

I don't post often, but Mr. Jensen's comments were so interesting that I hope you don't mind if I weigh in. A few points:

1. Search engine optimization..

Gentile Persuasion,

After listening to the QA, I want to thank you for writing exactly the points I thought stood out.

After my TBM bride listened to the QA, we talked a little about it. It was quite eye opening to her that a GA was admitting that the problem is much larger than my solitary exit and that the church now admits to using focus groups to divine God's will.

It's becoming clearer to me that the church is simply a tar baby: Those within it are stuck to the mess whether they've recognized it yet or not, those without who have a little street smarts would do well not to take interest in it.


"hey $#@, I'm a Mormon.." TM

[_ludwigm]

Hey, I'm a Sassinak.

A word from the abyss... "Rob Roy" of Walter Scott.

I've read this word first in my childhood.

[_Quasimodo]

Hey, I'm a Sassinak.

A word from the abyss... "Rob Roy" of Walter Scott.

I've read this word first in my childhood.

Your one, too! :D

[_Darth J]

Franktalk,

What I take away from your little sermon is that the Church looks foolish when judged according to reasonable and rational criteria. Given this indisputable fact, you therefore recommend that people leave all logic, reason and common sense behind, and instead continue in a desire to believe that a Church that was founded by a adulterous con-man and demonstrated liar is the one true Church upon the face of the Earth today.

Your advice to others is to continue in this desire to believe until belief, however delusional, is achieved. You would then recommend that others somehow maintain this unfounded belief, against their own self interest, and in the face of exhaustive and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Sounds like a great plan to me.

Have I missed anything?

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

[_Franktalk]

The things of the Spririt of God may appear as foolishness to the natural man, but that does not mean that all things that appear as foolishness are of the Spirit of God.

I respect anyone's religious beliefs or spiritual path. But logic and reason won't be good guides if somebody can choose his premises from any data set that he wishes to be true.

How does one know what data set to use? It would be reasonable to use one that you have first hand knowledge. I only know what is true for me. I can not experience what another has experienced. I do know when I come across someone who has experienced some of what I have experienced. But of course I come across many more who have not experienced one bit of spirituality. Yet many of these people still love God. But these people are the ones who can be pulled back to the world by worldly logic. Some that post here freely admit they had no spiritual experience.

[_moksha]

Not that, but it seems that the questioners, who only have anecdotal information, are assuming people are leaving "in droves" over historical information and MKJ is certainly not acknowledging to what degree that is the case. My own experience (also anecdotal) remains that this type of apostasy on it's own is rare. When someone trys to leave because of some sin or offense (also sin), that is when they add unbelief to justify. Some type sin, immorality or otherwise, is always what it boils down to and it happened well before unbelief.

So the internet teaches uncertainty due to discovering previously unknown Church history and a concomitant desire to sin because of that uncertainty.