Large numbers of members apostatizing - says Marlin K Jensen

[_Themis]

How does one know what data set to use? It would be reasonable to use one that you have first hand knowledge. I only know what is true for me. I can not experience what another has experienced.

What we do see is no real agreement on what the spiritual experience is revealing about the world around us. It is a very unreliable method, prone to giving people what they want, or interpreting the expereince the way they want or have been taught to do.

I do know when I come across someone who has experienced some of what I have experienced.

I am sure you base it on how well they agree with your interpretation of them.

But of course I come across many more who have not experienced one bit of spirituality. Yet many of these people still love God.

People tend to believe what their tribe has taught them. They don't need a spiritual experience for many to maintain those beliefs.

But these people are the ones who can be pulled back to the world by worldly logic. Some that post here freely admit they had no spiritual experience.

The spiritual expereince comes in many forms, and many may not define the experience as spiritual, recognizing that the experience is internal. This can confuse many LDS who look for something more then what they suspect was just from themselves, while other members will quickly interpret it as from God. I think everyone has experienced it in some form, even if many not in profound ways, but then we have no idea what our bodies are capable of producing on there own.

[_Franktalk]

What we do see is no real agreement on what the spiritual experience is revealing about the world around us. It is a very unreliable method, prone to giving people what they want, or interpreting the expereince the way they want or have been taught to do.

I just love it when a blind person tries to describe sight.

[_Themis]

What we do see is no real agreement on what the spiritual experience is revealing about the world around us. It is a very unreliable method, prone to giving people what they want, or interpreting the expereince the way they want or have been taught to do.

I just love it when a blind person tries to describe sight.

And yet I am the one who can see how unreliable the spiritual expereince is, and that most of them get different information or interpretations then LDS ones.

[_Drifting]

What we do see is no real agreement on what the spiritual experience is revealing about the world around us. It is a very unreliable method, prone to giving people what they want, or interpreting the expereince the way they want or have been taught to do.

I just love it when a blind person tries to describe sight.

Frank, what about Themis' two sentences do you find factually incorrect?

[_Franktalk]

Frank, what about Themis' two sentences do you find factually incorrect?

I don't find anything factually incorrect. Many say they are spiritual when in fact they are very carnal. It is like someone who projects a fake shell around them. Myself I live in the world most of the time. Rarely do I drift off the physical plane but it does happen. Mostly I draw from the spirit world those ideas which help me discern ideas in this world. It is hard to explain. My comment refers to my belief that Themis is spiritually blind. But that may change in the future. But if one seeks evidence of the spiritual plane by observing the physical all I can say is good luck. The only way I believe it can happen is to abandon the physical plane. This requires faith. Myself I have had no manifestations of the spiritual plane for years. I still do have discernment which I am so thankful for.

People come and people go in religions for many reasons. It is my belief that many love the idea of God and never really love God. God is alive and is not an idea. When I pray I talk to God as my Father. I don't qualify my prayer and say if you are there. How silly. But many people who appear to have fallen were never risen in the first place. To count the number of people who come into the door of a church is no measure of the people who love God. All of this talk about how the church is failing is just junk. It is not the job of the church to act as a bridge between you and God. The RCC tried that path and it is an error. If the church modifies one thing to hold onto people who are not sheep then all is lost. But the church can do a better job of explaining doctrine. This they should do. And the path to spirituality is described in scripture. I will post my view of this path for you.

Let me step back for a moment and lay some ground work. We are here to know good from evil. The light of Christ or as I call it our moral rudder can discern good from evil. But we can listen to it or ignore it. But discernment requires that we love God. Let me outline the progression that takes place that leads to discernment.

1. We love God - When one recognizes that there is a God and forms a view of our place verses God's place one can start to love God for who He is.
2. We understand that it is God that holds the power for everything. Everything we see and touch came into being as a result of God's work.
3. We trust God - With a mixture of fear for the power of God and the love of God for allowing us this life in the flesh we trust that He has our best interest at heart. This is an extension of the love of God. Blind trust that He who makes the universe and sets the laws loves us and wishes us the best life possible. But we must know Him well enough to know that what He desires is not for the world but for us as a spirit. This is separate from the world. We must see that God is focused on our spirit and not the world. We may not even know what a spirit is at this point.
4. We cast off the world - So far things have been easy and most get to stage 3. But this one is not easy. You must embrace that this world is but a temporary existence for our spirit to learn. You must cut the ties that bind with the world. Your own body is of the world and is not you. It is a shell and nothing more. You feel lost and not attached to anything. You wonder why am I here. You lose your footing in the world, it becomes distant, it appears as an illusion. A fog that surrounds you and you see it as distant. You stop your emotional attachment to the world but you start to see others as spirits. You separate out what you see from what is actually there. Everything around you has been placed there by God so that you can enjoy it or as a test for you. Evil and good get divided sharply. The spiritual discernment which you hear about is so near. The world stands between you and spiritual discernment. You must remove the world before the spirit will talk with you. The spirit talks to spirit. The spirit does not talk to the world. Remove the world and the door opens. The door was always opened but the world stood in the way. The ideas of men lose their hold on you. The things that most men hold as truth become just ideas and nothing more. What you thought you knew becomes wrong or just words of men. If this does not happen then you have not cast off the world. Those who say that they can do both, hold the truth of man, and hold the truth of God are fools.
5. The world will hate you - The world is not your friend and has never been your friend. If you embraced the world it gave you treats to keep you. But when the world knows you have cast it off you become a target. So get ready. With spiritual discernment comes spiritual warfare. When some get a taste of this they run back to the world. You must have spiritual strength. I ask for strength daily and I need it. Some get to this point and fear overwhelms them as they even think of casting off the world. Satan and his workers will know what you are doing. Things will happen that don't make sense. In time spiritual discernment will sort out all of the confusion but some will run back to what is solid and what is familiar.
6. Scripture opens - When your eyes are opened by the spirit you will see more, hear more, and feel more.

Few take this path.

Frank

[_Drifting]

Let me step back for a moment and lay some ground work. We are here to know good from evil. The light of Christ or as I call it our moral rudder can discern good from evil.

Okay let me stop you here.

How do you know we are here to know good from evil?

(In fact I will start a seperate thread)

[_Buffalo]

What we do see is no real agreement on what the spiritual experience is revealing about the world around us. It is a very unreliable method, prone to giving people what they want, or interpreting the expereince the way they want or have been taught to do.

I just love it when a blind person tries to describe sight.

Role playing games should not be mistaken for real life, Franktalk.

[_Franktalk]

Role playing games should not be mistaken for real life, Franktalk.

Come now, please tell me what real life is? Are you telling me that you are the same person with everyone you meet? You don't act different around the boss or the wife? Oh please let us know what true real life is since you apparently know enough to reach inside of my head and can tell what I am thinking. Come down off your high horse Buffalo and join in with the rest of the world. You know that world where everyone is what they say they are. Well, at least in your crazy mixed up world.

[_Buffalo]

Role playing games should not be mistaken for real life, Franktalk.

Come now, please tell me what real life is? Are you telling me that you are the same person with everyone you meet? You don't act different around the boss or the wife? Oh please let us know what true real life is since you apparently know enough to reach inside of my head and can tell what I am thinking. Come down off your high horse Buffalo and join in with the rest of the world. You know that world where everyone is what they say they are. Well, at least in your crazy mixed up world.

What I was trying to say, Franktalk, is that magic and the supernatural aren't real.

[_Samantabhadra]

What I was trying to say, Franktalk, is that magic and the supernatural aren't real.

How do you know? I mean let's assume that your statement is true (I don't think that it is, at least not in the way that you mean it, but let's assume that you're right). How would you know that it is true? On a related note, how do you define "magic" and how does what is "natural" differ from what is "supernatural"?