Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

[_Runtu]

What archaeological record? We have depictions and THAT IS ALL.

So, the following are what, depictions?

And my point still stands, the Lamanites did not have Nephite technology at that time. We are talking about weapons fashioned by Lamanties in the relevant verses.

So, your position is that the Nephites left no trace of their technology, and when they merged with the Lamanites, they abandoned their technology in favor of the cruder Lamanite technology? Now you're really reaching.

Again you are making assumptions about how the technology was used in other areas and how generalized the knowledge was. Technology does not necessarily develop that way. It is known that iron forging was a specialized craft long before the bronze age ended (even in 600 BC), but it was known to a select set of people and not generally utilized until the era ended when it became generalized.

Now you're suggesting that a technology Nephi says he taught to his people and one that was practiced by the Jaredites for a millennium was known only to a select group. Again, serious reaching here.

That is quite incorrect. For example, the ancient Greeks invented gears and a steam cannon. This did not lead to the industrial revolution.

What would be incorrect is the notion that high-heat technology would have no noticeable impact on the broader culture and industry, which is what you are suggesting.

Isolated technologies are often lost (even in our civilization). Another example would be automata. Watch makers to display their craft in the 18th and early 19th century would create robots that could write poems, sign their name, and even draw. This did not lead to a break through in robotics or computing and eventually the craft was lost. It just isn't how technology works (even if surviving copies of the work exist).

We're not talking about breakthroughs but in noticeable impact. (I note that you're reverting to strawmen again.)

[_SteelHead]

Also, the automata that you reference directly led to the gear based crypto devices that in turn led to digital computing. So, really bad example with an incorrect conclusion.

[_Runtu]

Also, the automata that you reference directly led to the gear based crypto devices that in turn led to digital computing. So, really bad example with an incorrect conclusion.

Again, technologies have impact beyond their primary use.

[_Tobin]

That is NOT a macuahuitl. As far as I know, none exist.

So, your position is that the Nephites left no trace of their technology, and when they merged with the Lamanites, they abandoned their technology in favor of the cruder Lamanite technology? Now you're really reaching.

Again. The verses in Alma were written BEFORE the civilizations merged. Iron ore of sufficient quantity was unlikely to be widely available, so weapons were made of material more easily found. And yes, I am suggesting much of the Nephites civilization's technology was lost for the reasons I have stated before.

Now you're suggesting that a technology Nephi says he taught to his people and one that was practiced by the Jaredites for a millennium was known only to a select group. Again, serious reaching here.

And it isn't a stretch to state the knowledge was generally to be had and ore was plentiful? That is your assumption and just as much of a stretch.

What would be incorrect is the notion that high-heat technology would have no noticeable impact on the broader culture and industry, which is what you are suggesting.

That the technology was isolated and not in general use and highly specialized. Your assumption is the stretch that the Nephites has an iron age and plentiful stocks of ore. There is no indication of any such occurance as you often point out.

[_Tobin]

Also, the automata that you reference directly led to the gear based crypto devices that in turn led to digital computing. So, really bad example with an incorrect conclusion.

Cite a source. There is no evidence of any such tie-in unless you can show that in some way Babbage was a watch maker and made automata, then I'll believe you.

[Guest]

What is the difference between pascaline and automata?

Leibniz wheel?

Schickard calculating clock?
.
.
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I can keep adding to this list.... I will provide references if you really want, or you could just study the development of computing devices from automata of cogs and wheels to the babbage machine to enigma to the early tube based computers...... Just saying.

[_Runtu]

Again. The verses in Alma were written BEFORE the civilizations merged. Iron ore of sufficient quantity was unlikely to be widely available, so weapons were made of material more easily found. And yes, I am suggesting much of the Nephites civilization's technology was lost for the reasons I have stated before.

Unfortunately, the text disagrees with you:

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance. (2 Nephi 5:14-15)



9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

10 Now the land south was called aLehi, and the land north was called bMulek, which was after the cson of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south.

11 And behold, there was all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind; and there were also curious workmen, who did awork all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich. (Helaman 6:9-11)

23 And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work. (Ether 10:23)

So, from the time of the Jaredites until just before the time of Christ, there was abundant ore and widespread use of smelting technology, but all of that stopped, such that there is now no evidence of smelting technology, no leftover slag and mines, no weapons, no tools. Is that what you're arguing?

And it isn't a stretch to state the knowledge was generally to be had and ore was plentiful? That is your assumption and just as much of a stretch.

It's not a stretch or even an assumption because that is what the text says.

That the technology was isolated and not in general use and highly specialized. Your assumption is the stretch that the Nephites has an iron age and plentiful stocks of ore. There is no indication of any such occurance as you often point out.

Then you apparently agree that the text is unsupportable with current evidence.

[_Tobin]

In Alma 24:12-15,

1) We are discussing Lamanites, NOT NEPHITES!
2) We are discussing Lamanites, NOT JAREDITES!
3) We are discussing Lamanites, NOT MULEKITES!
4) We are discussing a time LONG before Lamanites merged with the Nephite civilization.

You just don't seem to understand what I am saying to you nor do you even attempt to respond to it. You don't seem to comprehend the concept that the Lamanites used the material at hand. You continually generalize and read into the text things are are NOT there and extrapolate bizarre conclusions. The fact that the small Nephite colony that just arrived in the Americas had plentiful resources DOES NOT imply one thing about the Nephite civilization. Making bad assumption after bad assumption is a useless waste of time in my opinion.

[_SteelHead]

Tobin,
Do you understand set theory? If the is no evidence for a technology in a superset, it does not matter what subset of the superset you choose.... It is still not there.

[_Runtu]

In Alma 24:12-15,

1) We are discussing Lamanites, NOT Nephites!
2) We are discussing Lamanites, NOT JAREDITES!
3) We are discussing Lamanites, NOT MULEKITES!
4) We are discussing a time LONG before Lamanites merged with the Nephite civilization.

What are you talking about? The text makes it clear that ore was abundant for the Nephites and Lamanites (and the Jaredites before them). Here's Helaman 6:9-11 again:

9 And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

10 Now the land south was called Lehi, and the land north was called Mulek, which was after the son of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south.

11 And behold, there was all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind; and there were also curious workmen, who did awork all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich. (Helaman 6:9-11)

We're talking about Nephites and Lamanites at the time of Christ. According to the text, they understood metallurgy and had an abundant supply of ore. We're not talking about an isolated group but the whole combined.

You just don't seem to understand what I am saying to you nor do you even attempt to respond to it.

Maybe I'm not understanding because you're not being clear.

You don't seem to comprehend the concept that the Lamanites used the material at hand.

See the Helaman quote above.

You continually generalize and read into the text things are are NOT there and extrapolate bizarre conclusions.

All I said is that, according to the text, at the time of Christ, the Nephites and Lamanites had access to plentiful resources, specifically different kinds of ore. In fact, the Helaman passage I quoted says that both the land northward (Mulek) and the land southward (Lehi) had "all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind; and there were also curious workmen, who did awork all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich." What exactly have I concluded that is not in the text?

The fact that the small Nephite colony that just arrived in the Americas had plentiful resources DOES NOT imply one thing about the Nephite civilization.

Again, when the text says the Nephites and Lamanites had plentiful resources some 600 years after Nephi's small colony arrived, it's not an assumption. It is just what the text says.

Making bad assumption after bad assumption is a useless waste of time in my opinion.

Ignoring the text is even more of a waste of time.