Mormon Infobia...

[_Drifting]

If you read the thread you will find its not me THAT misunderstands the Church's position. I don't agree WITH it, but I'm clear IN what the Church TEAChes.

Your perversion of "The Church" and it's teachings by quote mining only PART of what it teaches, to try to put Mormonism in a box that fits YOUR ideology and interpretation of it, is not what the Church actually teaches.

See, you don't get it..... The anti-mormon who teaches that Mormonism is "works" based, is a liar, because he quotes mines only what he wants, not the actual truth which is Mormonism teaches BOTH Grace and Works as being necessary, and there is plenty of teachings on that subject and that it's only by Grace can we be saved.

You are doing the same kind of thing. You quote "part" of our teachings, entirely ignoring the rest which tells the actual doctrine, which is the doctrine Franktalk and the rest of us have been trying to explain to you.

You anti's do this in EVERYTHING..... You pervert and misrepresent, and then claim to be the actual truth teller.

I notice YOU haven't provided any ACTUAL quotes TO support your opinion and to SHOW me where I am in error. PERHAPS you would BE kind enough TO do so...

[_Benjamin McGuire]

Drifting writes:

I believe it's your turn to answer or concede...

Contrasted to an even more authoritative source - D&C 107:81-84:

There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church. And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood; And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him. Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

This passage reflects the possibility that the President of the Church (the Prophet - specifically referred to as the President of the High Priesthood in this text) can be excommunicated from the church.

[_Drifting]

Drifting writes:

I believe it's your turn to answer or concede...

Contrasted to an even more authoritative source - D&C 107:81-84:

There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church. And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood; And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him. Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

This passage reflects the possibility that the President of the Church (the Prophet - specifically referred to as the President of the High Priesthood in this text) can be excommunicated from the church.

Hmmm....that seems to be at odds with;

I have given the following counsel to Church members—those who have committed themselves by upraised hands to sustain their church leaders:

“Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local. Jude condemns those who ‘speak evil of dignities.’ (Jude 1:8.) Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true. As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947,

“‘When we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.’ (In Conference Report, Apr. 1947, p. 24.)” (Address to Church Educational System teachers, Aug. 16, 1985.)

[_ludwigm]

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=552435#p552435

[_Benjamin McGuire]

Drifting writes:

Hmmm....that seems to be at odds with;

I think that there are lots of places where we can find conflicting accounts and even conflicting narratives. Does this mean that we should be promoting one over the other? Is it right for any of us to try and pick just those accounts that support the point of view we want to push?

I think that members of the church in general will often choose which narrative they want to follow - and I think it is their prerogative to do so. At the same time, I also think it is highly inappropriate for both believers and non-believers to try and push a narrative onto members of the church and to insist that the model they are pushing is either the best or the only way.

Both the comments by Richards and BKP run into the interesting challenge (visibly lessened in recent years I suppose) where General Authorities disagree with one another. In the past this was often very visible (with both sides presenting competing narratives from the pulpit). I tend to take such statements with a grain of salt. The LDS Church was founded in part on a notion of democratic process.

Thou shalt not leave this place until after the conference; and my servant Joseph shall be appointed to preside over the conference by the voice of it, and what he saith to thee thou shalt tell. ... neither shall anything be appointed unto any of this church contrary to the church covenants. For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith. (D&C 28:10-13)

Clearly interpretations and practice come and go in the church - which is to say that the church's approach to some of these issues changes over time, and continues to change. It wasn't too long ago that we had the September Six. And now, the church has apparently become much more tolerant of public dissent. Perhaps we have more of a pendulum which swings between the poles of these competing narratives.

Ben M.

[_Drifting]

Clearly interpretations and practice come and go in the church - which is to say that the church's approach to some of these issues changes over time, and continues to change. It wasn't too long ago that we had the September Six. And now, the church has apparently become much more tolerant of public dissent. Perhaps we have more of a pendulum which swings between the poles of these competing narratives.

Ben M.

Which is odd considering God is pulling the strings...

[_Franktalk]

Which is odd considering God is pulling the strings...

There is only one truth. God does not set men at odds against one another with two truths. So either a leader is doing God's work or the members are doing God's work. If the leader is then the members should keep their opinions to them self. But if the members are doing the Lord's work then the leader is toast. What is so hard to understand about this?

[_Drifting]

If the leader is then the members should keep their opinions to them self.

You capture Mormon Infobia well in this statement.
From Primary age you are taught to follow the Prophet regardless of wether you think he is right or wrong. This obedience training extends into all lessons and materials. Members are encouraged to take doubts, concerns, questions etc and put them on a high shelf. Or, as you succinctly put it, keep their opinions to themselves.

[_Franktalk]

You capture Mormon Infobia well in this statement.
From Primary age you are taught to follow the Prophet regardless of wether you think he is right or wrong. This obedience training extends into all lessons and materials. Members are encouraged to take doubts, concerns, questions etc and put them on a high shelf. Or, as you succinctly put it, keep their opinions to themselves.

The foundation of the Church is listening to the Holy Spirit. If that is what guides us we can do no wrong. These words fall on deaf ears if the Holy Spirit is not in you. The simple worldly logic you write about means nothing.

[_Drifting]

You capture Mormon Infobia well in this statement.
From Primary age you are taught to follow the Prophet regardless of wether you think he is right or wrong. This obedience training extends into all lessons and materials. Members are encouraged to take doubts, concerns, questions etc and put them on a high shelf. Or, as you succinctly put it, keep their opinions to themselves.

The foundation of the Church is listening to the Holy Spirit. If that is what guides us we can do no wrong. These words fall on deaf ears if the Holy Spirit is not in you. The simple worldly logic you write about means nothing.

Franktalk, please stay on topic.
The unreliability of the Holy Ghost is being discussed on a different thread.