Drifting wrote:The problem with 'steel' as I see it (and I think this is Runtu's point) is that yet again, The Book of Mormon setting(s) fails to deliver such evidences that are reasonable to expect to be there...
And you make the same fatal assumption that Runtu does. That assumption is the following: there was generalized knowledge of steel production throughout Meso-America and so we should lots of examples of the things needed to produce it and applications of the technology in other areas. However, the evidence is there WAS NOT a generalized knowledge of steel production in Meso-America OR - AND THIS IS IMPORTANT - in the world at large till the Iron Age. Applications of technologies involved in the use of steel were generally not broadened into other areas because of this limited specialization of the craft. Supplies of ore in sufficient quantites and other resources needed for large production of steel were not in place and so finding examples (given the thousands of years since its use) would be extremely unlikely.
No I don't. I make the assumption that because millions of people mentioned in the Book of Mormon died as a result of great wars involving steel weapons that there should be at least one evidence somewhere in the America's. One will do...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
And you make the same fatal assumption that Runtu does. That assumption is the following: there was generalized knowledge of steel production throughout Meso-America and so we should lots of examples of the things needed to produce it and applications of the technology in other areas. However, the evidence is there WAS NOT a generalized knowledge of steel production in Meso-America OR - AND THIS IS IMPORTANT - in the world at large till the Iron Age. Applications of technologies involved in the use of steel were generally not broadened into other areas because of this limited specialization of the craft. Supplies of ore in sufficient quantites and other resources needed for large production of steel were not in place and so finding examples (given the thousands of years since its use) would be extremely unlikely.
The requisites for steel or something like it are present or very close in both time and space in the Mesoamerican LGT context to make it very plausible for the word to legitimately appear as a result of the Book of Mormon translation process.
Good morning bcspace, I hope you and yours are well.
Your paragraph reminded me of booking a hotel room that claimed 'a sea view'. When I got there I had to stand on a chair, lean precariously out of the window, crane my neck to the left and I could just see a reflection of water that may or may not have been the sea in the window of a building three blocks down. Providing it was a sunny clear day. ;-)
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Drifting wrote:No I don't. I make the assumption that because millions of people mentioned in the Book of Mormon died as a result of great wars involving steel weapons that there should be at least one evidence somewhere in the America's. One will do...
In the word's of Ronald Reagon, "There you go again..." You know they were steel weapons how? The only nation who used steel weapons were the Jaredites in large numbers (and they were wiped out more than 2700 years ago - good luck with finding any of those remains). And as I've pointed out to Runtu and you, steel weapons were undoubtedly very rare amoung the Nephites and the weapons were most likely made of other materials including wood, obsidian, etc. In fact, those types of weapons (made from obsidian and wood) were still in use when the Spanish arrived.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Drifting wrote:(bc) Your paragraph reminded me of booking a hotel room that claimed 'a sea view'. When I got there I had to stand on a chair, lean precariously out of the window, crane my neck to the left and I could just see a reflection of water that may or may not have been the sea in the window of a building three blocks down. Providing it was a sunny clear day. ;-)
The manageress of a girl's seminary complains to a commander of a special unit: - Your men are bathing in the creek every morning, naked!! - But, madame, we are encamped one mile from Your establisment... - One mile? What distance is that for a good telescope?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Drifting wrote:And as I've pointed out to Runtu and you, steel weapons were undoubtedly very rare amoung the Nephites and the weapons were most likely made of other materials including wood, obsidian, etc. In fact, those types of weapons (made from obsidian and wood) were still in use when the Spanish arrived.
The words 'wood' and 'obsidian' occur how often in the Book of Mormon in relation to weaponry?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Tobin wrote:The only nation who used steel weapons were the Jaredites in large numbers (and they were wiped out more than 2700 years ago - good luck with finding any of those remains)
Yeah, uh, ancient Greek armor and weapons from ca. 500 BCE (~2500 years ago) survived just fine in places like Olympia and the tomb of Philip II in Vergina. You can go right up to the armor plates and see them yourself. Apart from gold and silver most of the artifacts are bronze, with some iron, and even a little steel.
The technique for making steel was known from about 500 BCE in India, where the ore for making it was called "wootz." This was one of the key elements in the weapons, widely-used by the Romans, made from metal known as "Damascus steel."
Damascus steel was used for many Roman swords since the time of Alexander (ca. 330 BCE, ~2300 years ago). So much of it survives that experiments have already been done proving that whatever the now-lost process for making it involved, the end result yielded carbon nanotubes within at least one finished blade. Experiments are currently underway on other Damascus steel blades. The point being, steel does not simply disappear, even over the course of 2700 years.
Tobin wrote:The only nation who used steel weapons were the Jaredites in large numbers (and they were wiped out more than 2700 years ago - good luck with finding any of those remains)
Yeah, uh, ancient Greek armor and weapons from ca. 500 BCE (~2500 years ago) survived just fine in places like Olympia and the tomb of Philip II in Vergina. You can go right up to the armor plates and see them yourself. Apart from gold and silver most of the artifacts are bronze, with some iron, and even a little steel.
The technique for making steel was known from about 500 BCE in India, where the ore for making it was called "wootz." This was one of the key elements in the weapons, widely-used by the Romans, made from metal known as "Damascus steel."
Damascus steel was used for many Roman swords since the time of Alexander (ca. 330 BCE, ~2300 years ago). So much of it survives that experiments have already been done proving that whatever the now-lost process for making it involved, the end result yielded carbon nanotubes within at least one finished blade. Experiments are currently underway on other Damascus steel blades. The point being, steel does not simply disappear, even over the course of 2700 years.
That's a non-sequitor. The reason is simple. Time and location. These items are located in a wet, humid jungle exposed to the elements for thousands of years. Your citations of finds buried in a very dry desert or housed in buildings/tombs. They have found papyrus that have survived in those conditions for thousands of years. Good luck finding papyrus in a jungle. :)
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Yes, you bring up the difficulty of preserving papyrus in a humid climate as a counter-argument to the claim that steel does not simply disappear, even over a period of 2700 years, but I am the one guilty of arguing from a non sequitur. Hoo boy.
Archaeologists have dated the Dowris material to about 7th century B.C. thus marking the first phase in the Irish late Bronze Age. Presumably this dating is based on the superior quality of the metalwork, and the finding of considerable numbers of decorative bronze pieces such as bracelets and dress fasteners.
Tobin wrote: That's a non-sequitor. The reason is simple. Time and location. These items are located in a wet, humid jungle exposed to the elements for thousands of years. Your citations of finds buried in a very dry desert or housed in buildings/tombs. They have found papyrus that have survived in those conditions for thousands of years. Good luck finding papyrus in a jungle. :)
The Mediterranean isn't wet or humid?
And where does the Book of Mormon mention wet, humid jungles, by the way?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.