Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[_Tobin]

No, the methodology is bunk. Let's avoid emotional outbursts and strawman arguments.

LOL. Josepth Smith saw God, so you see God and talk to him about it and that isn't a good way to determine the truth. Don't be absurd.

[_Quasimodo]

LOL. Josepth Smith saw God, so you see God and talk to him about it and that isn't a good way to determine the truth. Don't be absurd.

Isn't that really the question? Did Joseph Smith see God or just babes and dollar signs? You don't know if he did see God and neither does anyone else. If you saw God it's only of value to you. No one else can take that as proof of anything.

People claim to have seen many strange things. How can any one else know if they are true or just imagination, delusion or deliberate lies?

[_Tobin]

Isn't that really the question? Did Joseph Smith see God or just babes and dollar signs? You don't know if he did see God and neither does anyone else. If you saw God it's only of value to you. No one else can take that as proof of anything.

People claim to have seen many strange things. How can any one else know if they are true or just imagination, delusion or deliberate lies?

Well, that's the point. Mormonism is to lead YOU to God. Who cares what anyone else has seen.

[_Tobin]

It isn't me.

Oh really? Address the Lamanite pre-merger and how they learned how to make iron weapons please. Still dodging that issue are we.

You want to limit the discussion to a time period when the Nephite "colony" is small and therefore would have left little trace, which of course makes sense from an apologetic position. The text, however, specifically says that the Jaredites had this technology, and so did the Nephites. I'm sticking with what the text says. Nothing more.

Of course I limit it to what the text actually says. I don't assume that there was an iron age in the Nephite civilization because we both know there wasn't one. As far as the Jaredites, well - that is an entirely different matter. You DO have a point that it seems they had a great deal of iron weaponry. However, it is of note that most of it was laying exposed and rusting according to Mosiah and they used it to cut each up other into little bitty pieces. Also, the civilization was thousands of years old so over that period of time they could have accumulated quiet a few iron weapons even if the craft was specialized and not generalized into an iron age.

[_Quasimodo]

Isn't that really the question? Did Joseph Smith see God or just babes and dollar signs? You don't know if he did see God and neither does anyone else. If you saw God it's only of value to you. No one else can take that as proof of anything.

People claim to have seen many strange things. How can any one else know if they are true or just imagination, delusion or deliberate lies?

Well, that's the point. Mormonism is to lead YOU to God. Who cares what anyone else has seen.

Great! We agree that religious beliefs can only be personal. Whether Mormon or Buddhist, ones beliefs are truly one's own.

You (or me, for that matter) cannot expect anyone else to agree with our own personal beliefs. Stories of visitations are subjective. Proclamations by Prophets must withstand scrutiny. Written works (Book of Mormon) must live or die by the evidences that have been brought to light by science.

[_Themis]

Oh really? Address the Lamanite pre-merger and how they learned how to make iron weapons please. Still dodging that issue are we.

Well they were together at the beginning when they were making steel and iron. There were also a number of defections to the lamanites from the nephites. Big assumption to make that they had no knowledge of how to make iron tools and weapons.

Of course I limit it to what the text actually says. I don't assume that there was an iron age in the Nephite civilization because we both know there wasn't one.

You definitely are not limiting what you say to the text. The text clearly describes an iron age nephite culture numerous times from the begging. You say they didn't not becuase of the text, which says the opposite, but becuase of the science shows so far that their was not any, and not just from lack of iron tools and weapons being found.

As far as the Jaredites, well - that is an entirely different matter. You DO have a point that it seems they had a great deal of iron weaponry. However, it is of note that most of it was laying exposed and rusting according to Mosiah and they used it to cut each up other into little bitty pieces. Also, the civilization was thousands of years old so over that period of time they could have accumulated quiet a few iron weapons even if the craft was specialized and not generalized into an iron age.

It's even more anachronistic for Jaredites to have iron and steel technology. Again this would leave plenty of evidence for archeologists to find in a number of different ways. We see none from anywhere in central America where you believe the Jaredites and Nephites lived. Don't blame us for showing that the text is anachronistic in describing iron age civilizations that don't show up in the archeology record. It's not the only problem for the Book of Mormon and lack of evidence they existed anywhere in the Americas, but then why do you care if you believe God told you it was true?

[_Tobin]

Great! We agree that religious beliefs can only be personal. Whether Mormon or Buddhist, ones beliefs are truly one's own.

You (or me, for that matter) cannot expect anyone else to agree with our own personal beliefs. Stories of visitations are subjective. Proclamations by Prophets must withstand scrutiny. Written works (Book of Mormon) must live or die by the evidences that have been brought to light by science.

Agreed. I used to believe the Book of Mormon was a fariy tale and the claims of Joseph Smith was a hoax. God, angels, gold books, and so on - seriously?!? After seeing God, I have re-evaluated my position. However, I would not expect anyone here to do the same unless they had experienced the same thing. I am willing to discuss why I reasonably believe that he MAY have a leg to stand on. Can I prove it? Hell no.

[_Quasimodo]

Agreed. I used to believe the Book of Mormon was a fariy tale and the claims of Joseph Smith was a hoax. God, angels, gold books, and so on - seriously?!? After seeing God, I have re-evaluated my position. However, I would not expect anyone here to do the same unless they had experienced the same thing. I am willing to discuss why I reasonably believe that he MAY have a leg to stand on. Can I prove it? Hell no.

I'm starting to like you.

[_Tobin]

Well they were together at the beginning when they were making steel and iron. There were also a number of defections to the Lamanites from the Nephites. Big assumption to make that they had no knowledge of how to make iron tools and weapons.

Of course, Nephi would have taught Laman and Lemuel how to make weapons to use against him and his people. I don't think so. And your explantation doesn't fit with what Alma says about the weapons they were using at his time. Remember, this was a specialized craft that Nephi knew (not Laman and Lemuel).

You definitely are not limiting what you say to the text. The text clearly describes an iron age Nephite culture numerous times from the begging. You say they didn't not becuase of the text, which says the opposite, but becuase of the science shows so far that their was not any, and not just from lack of iron tools and weapons being found.

And you are making huge assumptions that the text implies an iron age in the Nephite civilization where none is discussed. Steel making was a specialized craft. This was true world-wide until the iron age and there were ample craftsmen and materials.

It's even more anachronistic for Jaredites to have iron and steel technology.

Iron is the steel. We aren't talking about the 20th century. Even in Joseph Smith's time, high-grade steel was rare.

Again this would leave plenty of evidence for archeologists to find in a number of different ways. We see none from anywhere in central America where you believe the Jaredites and Nephites lived. Don't blame us for showing that the text is anachronistic in describing iron age civilizations that don't show up in the archeology record. It's not the only problem for the Book of Mormon and lack of evidence they existed anywhere in the Americas, but then why do you care if you believe God told you it was true?

Again, if there was no iron age and it was specialized craft, we wouldn't expect to find much evidence. For example, there would be no common iron implements and tools laying about. Nor nails, bolts, etc used in construction. There would be no large deposits of raw materials. And the list goes on. Arguing there must of been an iron age in the Book of Mormon when the book is at best ambiguous about the Jaredites (with a perfectly rational view that it was specialized and they accumulated iron weapons over a long time) and non-existent outside of the Nephite colony is disingenuous.

[_Runtu]

Oh really? Address the Lamanite pre-merger and how they learned how to make iron weapons please. Still dodging that issue are we.

You know, I've had a really bad day, and I have had enough of your silly games. There is no issue here to dodge. It's irrelevant.

YOf course I limit it to what the text actually says. I don't assume that there was an iron age in the Nephite civilization because we both know there wasn't one. As far as the Jaredites, well - that is an entirely different matter. You DO have a point that it seems they had a great deal of iron weaponry. However, it is of note that most of it was laying exposed and rusting according to Mosiah and they used it to cut each up other into little bitty pieces. Also, the civilization was thousands of years old so over that period of time they could have accumulated quiet a few iron weapons even if the craft was specialized and not generalized into an iron age.

It's kind of hard to discuss anything with someone who can't even acknowledge what the text says and furthermore tells us that his interpretation of the text means there will not be any evidence, whatsoever. Tell me again why I should bother continuing this absurd discussion.

I'm already in a bad mood, and I don't need your crap today.