Glass & Steel in the Book of Mormon, why a problem?

[Guest]

Oh, I'd quibble with use of 'objective' in that sentence.

I used the word "objective" to describe a non-Mormon reading the book. Someone that doesn't come to it with a prior believe that Joseph Smith was truly quoting God in his translations. Someone that is trying to evaluate whether or not the book is true or fiction.
The book itself seems to imply that the events took place in what is now upstate New York. I think (from what I've read) that most Mormons believe that too. I believe that recent apologists have come up with a Meso-American theory to explain away some difficult facts.

Ok, I quibble with the use of the word "objective" in that context then.

Doesn't the Hill Cumorah Pageant still take place near Palmyra, NY?

If your point is to demonstrate that you are correct because this map identifies the actual location of the hill Cumorah in NY, then you are mistaken. According to this map (http://www.bookofmormongeography.org/files/u1/tonawanda-watershed-map.jpg) the hill Cumorah would be located in Niagara county to the west of Orleans county, while the actual hill Cumorah is located in Wayne county, far to the east of Orleans county (and Monroe county!). Shall we look at another attempt at a map at where the the Book of Mormon took place?


This one suggests that the hill Cumorah/Ramah is actually in Canada.

[_Quasimodo]

Ok, I quibble with the use of the word "objective" in that context then.

I wouldn't want to interfere with your constitutional right to quibble.

If your point is to demonstrate that you are correct because this map identifies the actual location of the hill Cumorah in NY, then you are mistaken. According to this map (http://www.bookofmormongeography.org/files/u1/tonawanda-watershed-map.jpg) the hill Cumorah would be located in Niagara county to the west of Orleans county, while the actual hill Cumorah is located in Wayne county, far to the east of Orleans county (and Monroe county!). Shall we look at another earlier attempt at a map that was commonly passed out with the Book of Mormon?

Maybe I'm a little slow this morning, but I really don't see how your maps have anything to do with my posts.

I was commenting on the two opinions about where the historical location of the Book of Mormon is located.

Hill Comorah (the one the Church likes) is four miles from Palmyra (looked it up). The distance from Palmyra to Panama is 4,335 miles (looked that up, too).

Doesn't four thousand miles seem like a long way to carry two hundred pounds of gold plates and bury them? Even if your riding a tapir?

[_Tobin]

Maybe I'm a little slow this morning, but I really don't see how your maps have anything to do with my posts.
I was commenting on the two opinions about where the historical location of the Book of Mormon is located.
Hill Comorah (the one the Church likes) is four miles from Palmyra (looked it up). The distance from Palmyra to Panama is 4,335 miles (looked that up, too).

I know you were. I was simply pointing out that none of the maps I've seen generated by "objective" sources even agree on where the hill Cumorah was and they certainly don't identify it where it is supposedly located near Palmyra. Hence, I was exercising my right to quibble.

Doesn't four thousand miles seem like a long way to carry two hundred pounds of gold plates and bury them? Even if your riding a tapir?

And it was a magic carpet. Get your facts right. But in all seriousness, why did Moroni make a box to put the plates in? Why not just leave the Book of Mormon in the cave with the rest of the Nephite records? Hint: the Mormon hill is not the hill Cumorah.

[_Quasimodo]

And it was a magic carpet. Get your facts right. But in all seriousness, why did Moroni make a box to put the plates in? Why not just leave the Book of Mormon in the cave with the rest of the Nephite records? Hint: the Mormon hill is not the hill Cumorah.

Where did Joseph Smith find the plates and how did they get there?

[_Tobin]

And it was a magic carpet. Get your facts right. But in all seriousness, why did Moroni make a box to put the plates in? Why not just leave the Book of Mormon in the cave with the rest of the Nephite records? Hint: the Mormon hill is not the hill Cumorah.

Where did Joseph Smith find the plates and how did they get there?

JSH 1:33 He called me by aname, and said unto me that he was a bmessenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for cgood and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.JSH 1:34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the bfulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
JSH 1:51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a ahill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

Moroni 1:3 And I, Moroni, will not adeny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.
Moroni 1:4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of aworth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

Apparently, it was buried in a box (presumably made by Moroni) and Moroni told him where it was. Clearly Moroni travelled around for some time (years?), so assuming he came up to NY to bury the plates for Joseph Smith to find is plausible.

[_Quasimodo]

Apparently, it was buried in a box (presumably made by Moroni) and Moroni told him where it was. Clearly Moroni travelled around for some time (years?), so assuming he came up to NY to bury the plates for Joseph Smith to find is plausible.

So, you think a four thousand mile stroll across enemy territory through jungles, deserts and mountains, alone, on foot and carrying golden plates is plausible?!

[_Tobin]

Apparently, it was buried in a box (presumably made by Moroni) and Moroni told him where it was. Clearly Moroni travelled around for some time (years?), so assuming he came up to NY to bury the plates for Joseph Smith to find is plausible.

So, you think a four thousand mile stroll across enemy territory through jungles, deserts and mountains, alone, on foot and carrying golden plates is plausible?!

I don't know. Do you think records written on Gold Plates, Angels appearing and visions of God are plausible? Err, wait, don't answer that. Please. If you are going down the rabbit hole with Alice, you have to drink the potion.

[_Quasimodo]

I don't know. Do you think records written on Gold Plates, Angels appearing and visions of God are plausible? Err, wait, don't answer that. Please. If you are going down the rabbit hole with Alice, you have to drink the potion.

Who's going down the fantasy rabbit hole? I don't believe any human could make the journey under those conditions.

What we're discussing is the veracity of the story. If you want to throw in Angels and God (Moroni must have forgotten to mention them) you might just as well throw in Alice and the potions (a white rabbit, too).

The point is that the story just doesn't work for anyone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid.

[_Tobin]

Who's going down the fantasy rabbit hole? I don't believe any human could make the journey under those conditions.
What we're discussing is the veracity of the story. If you want to throw in Angels and God (Moroni must have forgotten to mention them) you might just as well throw in Alice and the potions (a white rabbit, too).
The point is that the story just doesn't work for anyone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid.

Under what conditions? You stated the gold plates weighed 200 lbs. I made no such assertion.

[_Drifting]

Who's going down the fantasy rabbit hole? I don't believe any human could make the journey under those conditions.
What we're discussing is the veracity of the story. If you want to throw in Angels and God (Moroni must have forgotten to mention them) you might just as well throw in Alice and the potions (a white rabbit, too).
The point is that the story just doesn't work for anyone who has not drunk the Kool-Aid.

Under what conditions? You stated the gold plates weighed 200 lbs. I made no such assertion.

He also hid all the horses and steel weapons before he set off...
Which was a bit stupid considering he then had to complete his journey on foot and unarmed.