Book of Mormon and Bible - identical quotes...

[_Tobin]

If a latin word (Lucifer, in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Nephi 24:12) could survive the translation from Greek or Aramaic to Nephite, and the other translation from Nephite to English, then I don't care Semitic idioms.

The identical quotes were copied from KJV.

If the victim of the traffic accident has no head, no doctor begin check the pulse or any vital sign.

Uhm, lucifer - lux (light/fire) and ferre (to bear/to bring), is latin for Morning Star. In greek, the word for Morning Star is Eosphorus. In hebrew, it is heilel. If you make those substitutions, look at how Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) reads "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" Now, compare that with how Isaiah 12:14 (KJV) that reads "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!". Lucifier = Eosphorus = heilel = morning star.

[_Tobin]

You are still missing the point. Where is the original text. The one that would have written down what they thought Jesus wrote. Was is it written as Jesus was saying it? If not the as was already brought up(eidetic memories), then you would not get an accurate word for word of what Jesus said, forgetting for the moment what language it was spoken in, and what languages it may have been translated in. Was it written by someone much later who was going on the memory of someone who claimed to be there, or someone who claimed they know what went on. Again there is no realistic chance of what we see in the KJV being an accurate portrayal of what Jesus may have said. What makes it worse is the same applies to the claimed event in the New World and what we see in the Book of Mormon. You would more wise to bet on the lottery. We really can't get around that the KJV was the source of this part of the Book of Mormon. Even most apologists are conceding this. They come up with other explanations of why they think Joseph copied it. You can buy into those if you want to, although I never found them very compelling.

Uhm, we are talking about religious texts here. The Bible claims the world was flooded and Jesus came back from the dead, and you have a problem with the text accurately stating what he said or him saying the exact same thing in two places? Please.

[_Themis]

Uhm, we are talking about religious texts here. The Bible claims the world was flooded and Jesus came back from the dead, and you have a problem with the text accurately stating what he said or him saying the exact same thing in two places? Please.

At this point, I am not sure what I could say to help you comprehend the point I am making, and why the KJV would not have an accurate word for word story of this claimed event, and why the Gold plates would have a different story. That is not to say there would not be similarities(assuming they both happened), which to scholars would be better evidence they may have similar sources. That the Book of Mormon is using word for word the KJV is very good evidence that they did not come from the two different sources written on different Continents.

[_Tobin]

Uhm, we are talking about religious texts here. The Bible claims the world was flooded and Jesus came back from the dead, and you have a problem with the text accurately stating what he said or him saying the exact same thing in two places? Please.

At this point, I am not sure what I could say to help you comprehend the point I am making, and why the KJV would not have an accurate word for word story of this claimed event, and why the Gold plates would have a different story. That is not to say there would not be similarities(assuming they both happened), which to scholars would be better evidence they may have similar sources. That the Book of Mormon is using word for word the KJV is very good evidence that they did not come from the two different sources written on different Continents.

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. I understand it just fine. I just don't believe it. You don't believe what Jesus said is accurately reflected in KJV (I do). And even if it does, you don't believe Jesus would have said exactly the same thing to the Nephites using exactly the same idioms (I do). The fact that the KJV and Book of Mormon uses exactly the same words proves to you that Joseph Smith copied the text from the KJV into the Book of Mormon (I disagree, what it proves is that Jesus said exactly the same thing to the Nephites as he did in the old world using exactly the same semetic idioms in fact).

[_Themis]

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. I understand it just fine. I just don't believe it. You don't believe what Jesus said is accurately reflected in KJV (I do).

The chances are essentially zero. To many problems, and that the Book of Mormon uses the same words proves Joseph copied it from the Bible. Why do you think so many apologists agree that Joseph copied the Bible in these instances?

[_Tobin]

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. I understand it just fine. I just don't believe it. You don't believe what Jesus said is accurately reflected in KJV (I do).

The chances are essentially zero. To many problems, and that the Book of Mormon uses the same words proves Joseph copied it from the Bible. Why do you think so many apologists agree that Joseph copied the Bible in these instances?

Because I'm not other apologists and they are mistaken.

[_Themis]

Because I'm not other apologists and they are mistaken.

LOL

[_ludwigm]

If a latin word (Lucifer, in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Nephi 24:12) could survive the translation from Greek or Aramaic to Nephite, and the other translation from Nephite to English, then I don't care Semitic idioms.

The identical quotes were copied from KJV.

If the victim of the traffic accident has no head, no doctor begin check the pulse or any vital sign.

Uhm, lucifer - lux (light/fire) and ferre (to bear/to bring), is latin for Morning Star. In greek, the word for Morning Star is Eosphorus. In hebrew, it is heilel. If you make those substitutions, look at how Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) reads "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" Now, compare that with how Isaiah 12:14 (KJV) that reads "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!". Lucifier = Eosphorus = heilel = morning star.

Did You understand my words?
I don't care the NIV. Only the KJV counts.

The KJV and the Book of Mormon. Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Nephi 24:12.
For You, the official Bible is the KJV. All of its errors was corrected by Joseph Smith.

Once again: latin word. LATIN. L_A_T_I_N. The translation of a latin word through Aramaic, Greek and - don't forget! - Nephite.

Got it?

[_Tobin]

Did You understand my words?
I don't care the NIV. Only the KJV counts.

The KJV and the Book of Mormon. Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Nephi 24:12.
For You, the official Bible is the KJV. All of its errors was corrected by Joseph Smith.

Once again: latin word. LATIN. L_A_T_I_N. The translation of a latin word through Aramaic, Greek and - don't forget! - Nephite.

Got it?

The "official" version of the Bible is the KJV for me huh? Says who? Your whole issue with the Book of Mormon is it uses the Latin word, which happens to also be used in English and not unknown in Joseph Smith's day, for 'Morning Star' in a quote of Isaiah. You do realize the Book of Mormon is stylized in a form that parrots the KJV of the Bible throughout the text? This is the form taken by scripture in Joseph Smith's day and I understand why it was done, but I'm not married to the notion. The Book of Mormon does not live or die on the words or style chosen (I'd argue it is in serious need of an update actually and to remove the KJV style english because the typically reader in the US has difficulty understanding it nowdays), but if it is inspired of God or not? The only way to determine that is to actually speak to God yourself. After all, how do you know the Bible or the Quran or the Tripitaka (now that will take you a long time to read, it is 40 volumes) relays the truth either? Why is Christianity any more true a path than Islam or Buddhism? At some point you need to make a connection to God and determine that for yourself. No one else can do that for you.

[_ludwigm]

Your whole issue with the Book of Mormon is it uses the Latin word, which happens to also be used in English

Does it happen that that Latin word is used in Aramaic and Nephite? Does it mean Morning Star in that languages?

You do realize the Book of Mormon is stylized in a form that parrots the KJV of the Bible throughout the text?

Yes, I did realize the Book of Mormon is parroting the KJV. The word by word parroting is called copying.
I did realize the Book of Mormon is parroting at large.

After all, how do you know the Bible or the Quran or the Tripitaka (now that will take you a long time to read, it is 40 volumes) relays the truth either?

I've learned the Bible as a child, because I've had to.

I've read the Quran as an adult. Stupid text.

Tripitaka? Until now, I was not interested in. Maybe in the next 33 years... (I am 67 only.)
Be not dismayed, it would not take sooooo long time. In my native language I read 100-150 page a hour.


FYI paragraph : A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.