The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_gdemetz]

When I was reading these posts, I noticed some things that were not consistant with even the non-Mormon encyclopedias and theological writings, but I really appeciated some of the efforts here to tackle the Book of Revelation! Therefore, I feel inspired to sum up my LDS perspective of the 13th chapter of Revelation:

It starts out by identifying the Roman Empire coming up out of the sea, or from the nations, peoples, and tongues, and states that Satan gave it it's power, along with a brief discription of the kingdoms before it. It then goes on to state that this empire would receive a deadly wound, but would be revived, and that it would make war, overcome, and have power over the saints for 42 months. However, concerning this matter, I will refer you to Clark's Commentary (non-Mormon) in which it correctly states that this time period is prophetic, meaning that each day represents one year. Therefore, it is referring to a 1260 year period. In fact, this is the same period which is referred to in the 12th chapter of Revelation, in which the woman, representing the church, is driven into the wilderness (see also the JST of Revelation 12:5). This period is from 570 AD to 1830 AD, when the church finally came out of obscurity and was restored to public ministry again. This chapter goes on to state that another beast, or kingdom came up and excercised all the power of the first beast, or Rome, and that it had two horns like a lamb (Christlike). These two horns represent the Greek and Roman branches of this kingdom. It also states that it speaks as a dragon. The chapter goes on to describe a mark of this beast, or a sign of this kingdom, and I belivethat there was a discrepency from the original writing, and that the mark in the right hand and forehead should have been written as WITH the right hand and forehead (see "Mormon Doctrine, Sign of the Cross references). This chapter later talks about an image, or likeness of the first beast, and particularly the emperor, and compares it to the leader of this new "beast" and states that the number representing his name is 666. One day when I was reading the "New Catholic Encyclopedia," I saw the mitre of the bishop of Rome which had the inscription "DCLXVI."

[Guest]

gdemetz,

I found your post interesting. Why the year 570? The church had been apostate for centuries before that. And why did you convert 42 months to years, what in scripture gave you the idea you are to do that? I take it you are familiar with the Seventy week prophecy. Why would the last week be expanded from seven days to years and then expanded again?

I know there are many messages in scripture but those messages normally have two areas that support that message. Like two witnesses and the like.

Frank

I started to read Clark's commentary on Revelation. Just in the beginning he makes some big errors. He seems to think the Jews are ended for some reason and he thinks the Book of Revelation was written before the fall of Jerusalem. These are big errors which will cause a misread of the rest of the revelation. I will finish the rest of the commentary. When I am done we can if you wish start a thread to discuss his comments. I think he is one of those who believes in replacement theology. That whole idea is wrong.

[_bcuzbcuz]

This chapter later talks about an image, or likeness of the first beast, and particularly the emperor, and compares it to the leader of this new "beast" and states that the number representing his name is 666. One day when I was reading the "New Catholic Encyclopedia," I saw the mitre of the bishop of Rome which had the inscription "DCLXVI."

I'd love to see which picture you're referencing to. On the newer pictures of the mitre, all I see are flowers and on the older miters it is difficult to make out anything that even resembles the text you refer to. You sure you aren't looking at a photoshopped picture???

[_bcuzbcuz]

Sheryl,

It is obvious that there exist a connection between the physical plane and the spiritual. Each side advances by steps and each side is dependent on the other to progress to the next step. We can not go from atheist to a walk with God in one step. It seems to me I have examined my path and have tried to place that path into words. I may be able to describe my path but all paths are different even though they all head in one direction. They all start with our unique spirit and each of us is different. But we also exist as a group, we share many things that we are not even aware of. As one spirit advances it helps all others. The path to righteousness slowly breaks away a wall between all men and spiritual truth. But evil does its best to fix that wall so men are locked here in the flesh. Your comments on Abraham are right on. The types we see in scripture are for many purposes besides a heads up for the future. We all act out our roles. Even the earth and the rain are part of this stage. Only when our soul sees this can we obtain a conscience understanding of what we are doing. Yet even without the conscience understanding we are all advancing in spirit. And when we think the soul is locked away because the flesh is behaving badly it is actually attending an advanced class on character. Yes the curtain has been drawn up and the stage lighting is bright and what everyone should know is that there are no exits left or right. We all play our part until the last player is snatched away.

Frank

Frank, both you and Sheryl have talked about the spiritual versus the physical world. What is your stance on the defense of home and family laws that exist in the US? The recent killing of Trayvon Martin in Florida, with the killer being free because of the "Stand Your Ground" legislation fills the news. Do you support the necessity of having a handgun for family protection? Do you own weapons yourself? What about you, Sheryl? Does your family own guns?

[_Franktalk]

Frank, both you and Sheryl have talked about the spiritual versus the physical world. What is your stance on the defense of home and family laws that exist in the US? The recent killing of Trayvon Martin in Florida, with the killer being free because of the "Stand Your Ground" legislation fills the news. Do you support the necessity of having a handgun for family protection? Do you own weapons yourself? What about you, Sheryl? Does your family own guns?

Even Christ showed us that we are to protect our property. Do you remember the Temple grounds? How about the Old Testament where good and evil have battles and armies fought. How about Samuel killing a King in defense of Israel? And what about the Laws of Moses? I will tell you that the defense of my life, my family, or property I would use deadly force. But I don't seek it. The issue with this guy is that he was seeking a confrontation as far as I know. We only seek when told to do so by our leaders. This is sanctioned by scripture. You must be able to draw the line between those things which are of God and those which are of man. But even a policeman is not supposed to hate the criminal that he shoots. Do you understand that the world must be in balance between good and evil for us to live in its effects and choose for our self which we will embrace? How can that balance be maintained if one side will not fight?

[_Roger Morrison]

FRANK, you said:

"We can not go from atheist to a walk with God in one step. It seems to me I have examined my path and have tried to place that path into words. I may be able to describe my path but all paths are different even though they all head in one direction. They all start with our unique spirit and each of us is different. But we also exist as a group, we share many things that we are not even aware of. As one spirit advances it helps all others. The path to righteousness slowly breaks away a wall between all men and spiritual truth. But evil does its best to fix that wall so men are locked here in the flesh. Your comments on Abraham are right on. The types we see in scripture are for many purposes besides a heads up for the future. We all act out our roles. Even the earth and the rain are part of this stage. Only when our soul sees this can we obtain a conscience understanding of what we are doing. Yet even without the conscience understanding we are all advancing in spirit. And when we think the soul is locked away because the flesh is behaving badly it is actually attending an advanced class on character. Yes the curtain has been drawn up and the stage lighting is bright and what everyone should know is that there are no exits left or right. We all play our part until the last player is snatched away."

I found this an interesting paragraph that aroused a few questions and comments:

*What makes you believe that atheists, and other non-believers, don't "walk with "God""?

Might your concept of "God" be misconceived, or false? Does "God" favor the righteous over the unrighteous? NO!
*Men are locked in their flesh until they die. Hopefully enjoying and contributing their energy to the benefit of the group.

*Yes, we are all different. Designed, by genetics and environment to be that way.
As we understand, and truly appreciate our differences (not exploiting them) we will tend to advancing civility and charity as Jesus directed the drama to continue with his new law.

"All the world IS a stage... we have our entrances and our exits..." I sense you seem to see life as a tragedy, a constant battle/contest between good & evil / Satan & God???
Are there not times of shear joy, pleasure and satisfaction, creating treasured memories?

Thanks for your thoughts! Roger

[_Franktalk]

*Yes, we are all different. Designed, by genetics and environment to be that way.

Once you get away from that kind of thinking and realize that we are spirits that happen to be in this body you will make progress, but until then you will be stuck.

[_Roger Morrison]

*Yes, we are all different. Designed, by genetics and environment to be that way.

Once you get away from that kind of thinking and realize that we are spirits that happen to be in this body you will make progress, but until then you will be stuck.

Frank, what kind of "thinking" are you referring to? Where do you think I'm "stuck"? Is there nothing in the rest of my post that you find agreeable?

I am aware that we are more than physical. Disposed by nature & nurture to be who & what we are and do. Our body displays our spirit. Sort of "Body language" that emanates our true self under all conditions of life. . . Hopefully, the longer we live, the better we live.
Enjoy what you have. You might never have more. . .
Roger, over:-)

[_Franktalk]

Roger,

One day I was walking down a street and I looked into a window of a store. In there was a vase. It was beautiful. I admired the vase and wished that I owned it. I looked at the vase and gave it great worth. If I saw it shattered I would be sad. I was willing to trade what I had to obtain that vase.

The world Roger is that vase. I was not thinking of the potter but of the pot. The unseen potter was responsible for the pot. The clay could be this or it could be that. It was the potter that made all. When you start to see the unseen power behind the creation then you will see many things you never saw before. Yet they were in front of you the whole time. Cast away what you see and concentrate on the unseen power of God the Creator. When you accept that this world could be completely different and it was God's choice to make it this way then you will be taking your first step.

Imagine if you can billions of pots with lips and a voice. Many talk to each other about how they came from a lump of clay and they say their form is an accident of arraignment. Others say that all lumps came from nothing that exploded one day. I see the world this way. It is silly to consider pots talking to each other this way because we know there is a potter. Now consider yourself. Who made you?

[_bcuzbcuz]

Even Christ showed us that we are to protect our property. Do you remember the Temple grounds? How about the Old Testament where good and evil have battles and armies fought. How about Samuel killing a King in defense of Israel? And what about the Laws of Moses? I will tell you that the defense of my life, my family, or property I would use deadly force.

I'm going to assume you are an American, living in the US. You would use deadly force to protect your property. Said like a true American. posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=569920# And yet, as the OP of this particular train of thought, you wanted the rest of us to think about whether we would run into a burning building to save another human being.

You stated, "The question is made for us to think about our priorities. The physical running in and pulling people out is not the intent of the question. All of the responses that deal with the physical reality are very limited in what they describe. What is the thinking process and what about the worth of the people. How is that determined? I have stated that the worth of all of them are the same no matter the age or condition. The worth is associated with their spirit and not their flesh."

Do you then see yourself as an emissary of God, dispatching human bodies to God's kingdom. Sort of like that bumper sticker, "Kill 'em all, Let God sort 'em out!"

Didn't the ten commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill.!"? Did Moses leave out the paragraphs that covered the "unless" parts? Like, "It's not OK to kill, 'unless the other sucker is trying to rip you off' ?" Does that mean you have the right to kill the chief executives of Wall Street companies and the banking institutes for stealing properties from the American public in the crash of 2007-8?

You live in a world rife with contradictions.