Stay Strong Saints

[_gdemetz]

Actually, I think that the reference which you gave is a great one! I think that the 11 page (including all the references) "A Tale of Two Marriage Systems" from FAIR covers this subject very well.

[Guest]

Thews, according to the apologist site which you referred to these marriages were what is referred to in the church as "spiritual" marriages or sealings in the hereafter and didn't apply to this life, but I am glad that you mentioned these to me as I was not aware of them.

Please provide actual evidence that they were spiritual in nature only. This is an apologetic without substance. We know one wife indicated to her daughter that Joseph was her father. Since she never said this to any other children she had, she would not have meant in any spiritual way, but very physical. BY also took one of Joseph married wives and had children with her after he sent him to California. Real evidence just does not support you here. I guess it bothers all members(which is good), although it is sad to see such poor reasoning to justify what they know is wrong.

However, I will state that it is definitely not Mormon doctrine to ever take another mans wife

[_thews]

Thews, according to the apologist site which you referred to these marriages were what is referred to in the church as "spiritual" marriages or sealings in the hereafter and didn't apply to this life, but I am glad that you mentioned these to me as I was not aware of them.

I can point you to a 100 facts, and the one point you partially acknowledge (without using any facts) claims Joseph Smith's polyandry was just a sealing... no they weren't just sealings, just as Joseph Smith's other many wives were consummated marriages. Joseph Smith would send the husbands of the pretty wives off to far away missions so he could marry them. But on the lines of sealings, what sense does it make for a man to be sealed to another man's wife? What is the definition of love to the Mormon God? It certainly isn't one man and one woman, but one man and many women, that is, unless you're Joseph Smith, because you can have your women and other mens wives too.

What you fail to realize is that Joseph Smith was a liar... he lied about polygamy too. At what point do you acknowledge that you're throwing God under the bus to defend the truth claims of Joseph Smith? Here's some more data... you know, facts:

http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm#lied

1844 Sermon given by Joseph

It is clear that on May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy, despite claims to the contrary:

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this...I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me...What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."

(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411)
1838 Interview with Joseph (at least 3-5 years after his first plural wife)

In the July 1838 edition of the Elder's Journal ("Edited by Joseph Smith") Joseph Smith answered some questions including the following:

"Question 7th. Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?

"Answer. No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we do disapprove of the custom which has gained in the world, and has been practiced among us, to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six weeks, or even in two or three months after the death of their companion.

"We believe that due respect ought to be had, to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children."

(Elder's Journal, Vol 1, No. 3, p 43; reprinted in History of the Church Vol 3, p 38)
1838 Letter written by Joseph

On Dec 16, 1838 Joseph Smith wrote a letter to the church from Liberty Jail which included the following:

"We have heard that it is reported by some, that some of us should have said, that we not only dedicated our property, but our families also to the Lord; and Satan, taking advantage of this, has perverted it into licentiousness, such as a community of wives, which is an abomination in the sight of God."

(History of the Church Vol 3, p 230

[_gdemetz]

The "FAIR" site you quoted to me does not come to the same conclusions that you have here. Maybe you should just use the anti sites, and no, I don't have a problem with polygamy in heaven. It was taught by Brigham Young who even mentioned that God had more than one wife! Why do you have a problem with that? Cerainly, if we have a Heavenly Father, then it makes sense to me that we would have a heavenly mother also, and I don't beleive for one minute that all of mankind on all of the "worlds without number" are from one Heavenly Mother!

[_just me]

The "FAIR" site you quoted to me does not come to the same conclusions that you have here. Maybe you should just use the anti sites, and no, I don't have a problem with polygamy in heaven. It was taught by Brigham Young who even mentioned that God had more than one wife! Why do you have a problem with that? Cerainly, if we have a Heavenly Father, then it makes sense to me that we would have a heavenly mother also, and I don't beleive for one minute that all of mankind on all of the "worlds without number" are from one Heavenly Mother!

That's right, gotta have lots of vessels for all the "seed."

I feel sad that not only does HF have one abused spouse, he has more than one.

Brigham Young said lots of stupid crap. Shall we believe it all?

[_thews]

The "FAIR" site you quoted to me does not come to the same conclusions that you have here. Maybe you should just use the anti sites, and no, I don't have a problem with polygamy in heaven. It was taught by Brigham Young who even mentioned that God had more than one wife! Why do you have a problem with that? Cerainly, if we have a Heavenly Father, then it makes sense to me that we would have a heavenly mother also, and I don't beleive for one minute that all of mankind on all of the "worlds without number" are from one Heavenly Mother!

Why must you use an exclamation point to emphasize every sentence! You claim the conclusions are different, but don't state why you agree with Fair's conclusion. Why? What factual data do you use to come to these conclusions? What compelling argument do they make that thwarts the so-called "anti" factual information? Seriously... you are instructed to label anything that isn't faith-promoting as "anti" without looking at the actual truth. Please point me to why you agree with Fair's conclusion.

[_gdemetz]

You say that they weren't just sealings, and FAIR claims that there is no evidence otherwise. What evidence do you have from the anti sites which prove otherwise?

[_thews]

You say that they weren't just sealings, and FAIR claims that there is no evidence otherwise. What evidence do you have from the anti sites which prove otherwise?

It's so sad you can't research the answers to your own questions. Why is that? Do you do as you're instructed to do and believe what you're instructed to believe? Give me one fact you disagree with and I'll research it for you... you know, because I have the freedom to find data wherever it's truthful. Just one... what one thing have I quoted that you question as false?

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Yes, Themis, I think I do. Joseph, I think for obvious reasons, wanted to keep the practice of polygamy secret.

So Joseph was above the law?

Article of faith #12 did not apply to the author?

The 1835 edition of the D&C section 101:4 was only pertaining to those who did not practice polygamy?

[_gdemetz]

You are the one who has accused Joseph without proof, and you are asking me to prove a negative? Since you accused him, then you be the one to produce the facts.