God and Man at FAIR: The Sunstoneization of Apologetics

[_MCB]

Of course He did.

"And upon this rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus Christ

Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas." He, according to Celsus, had a numerous train of wives.
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were "Mormons."
…...
If you will pass along in the days of the Apostles, after a while you see them thrust into cauldrons of oil, crucified with their heads downwards, and persecuted in various ways until they became extinct. After a while, you have the beauty, the sublimity of Catholicism. Look at the old mother, seated upon a scarlet coloured beast, boxing the ears of her daughters; and the Church of England in turn boxing the ears of the old mother, assisted by her other numerous offspring, and then mark the bitter contentions and bloody feuds among the children! O, have they not had a sublime time − a beautiful dish of succotash. What a uniform course they have taken!

JD 1:345 − p.346, Jedediah M. Grant, August 7, 1853

So if the gates of hell could not prevail against the church established by Jesus Christ, were the early Utah prophets wrong?

[_gdemetz]

Yea, Just Me, that was recorded by Matthew, originally written in Aramic, I'm confident, and later translated in the Greek. As far as I am aware, it is a perfectly good translation. I have never heard any respected theologian state otherwise. It never ceases to amaze me here how the anti's not only try to change history, but also the scriptures themselves, in attempts to suit their views.

[_gdemetz]

That's an interesting post MCB. Yea, I'm confident that Christ's instituted the higher laws of polygamy and the law of consecration, and practiced them. There is substantial evidence of the latter, as per the case of Annaias and Zapphira recorded in the book of Acts, but the New Testament evidence of polygamy is scant. There is the quote that a bishop should be the husband of one wife, and the fact that Jesus was constantly accompanied by several women, but other than that, there is very little, if any. Maybe there were attempts then to keep that secret also.

[Guest]

So then how do you explain Mark 10?

And the Pharisees coming to him asked him: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3 But he answering, saith to them: What did Moses command you?
4 Who said: Moses permitted to write a bill of divorce, and to put her away.
5 To whom Jesus answering, said: Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you that precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.
7 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother; and shall cleave to his wife.
8 And they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10 And in the house again his disciples asked him concerning the same thing.
11 And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Again, how would Jesus found a church, make that promise, yet allow it to be destroyed in a generation, and restored 1700 years later? I could drive a Boeing 747 through the holes in your logic.

[_gdemetz]

MCB, Jesus was merely stating that if a man puts away his wife to marry another without just cause (such as fornication as He also states), the he is committing adultery against her. Also, Christ stated that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, and it won't. Will the gates of hell win some battles? Yes, there are a number of passages in the Old Testament and New Testament which state that the church would be overcome for 1260 days (prophetic days representing years), and it was; from 570 AD until 1830 AD. However, there should be no doubt about the final outcome!

[_MCB]

LOL, go ahead believing in that drivel.

[_Drifting]

Yes, there are a number of passages in the Old Testament and New Testament which state that the church would be overcome for 1260 days (prophetic days representing years), and it was; from 570 AD until 1830 AD. However, there should be no doubt about the final outcome!

I think you are a troll.

[_gdemetz]

You are wrong. The trolls are the ones that never heard of "prophetic days."

[_Droopy]

Yea, that's true, but when Christ set up His church, then that group would be the right one.

Christ (do you mean Jesus?) did not set up a church.

Yes, he quite patently did.

[_Droopy]

Of course He did.

"And upon this rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus Christ

Do you know when that was written and by whom? The concept of "church" was not even in existence until long, long after the death of Jesus.

Really? The concept of an ecclesia - an organized body of belief, ritural, ceremony, practice, and doctrine; a cultus with a name, members, internal rules and traditions, and specific ordinances of initiation and unique truth claims differentiating it from competing belief systems, was unknown in the ancient world until long after the third decade of the First Century?

Fascinating, just fascinating.