Fables vs. Restored Truths

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_Samantabhadra
_Emeritus
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _Samantabhadra »

"As a side note", most people understand the Scriptures as not being an actual account of geologic history....are you familiar with the Scriptures and what they are about?


Yes. And I agree with you that only an idiot, or a mendacious atheist intent on making his opponents appear to have the worst possible arguments, would insist that Scripture conveys an actual account of geologic history.

Only those without basic spiritual discernment try to attack the validity of the Scriptures via such a novice approach...amusing, but ineffective to say the least.


I think you misunderstand me. I am not "attacking" the Scriptures. On the contrary, I am arguing for a sophisticated understanding of Scripture. I think we are in agreement here.

so, your evidence is a theory that is what i was asking for evidence of?
Let me be specific....
prove your following claim with actual empirical evidence
"The rate of decay does not change any more over a period of a billion years than it does over a period of a million or a thousand years, or a single year."(emphasis mine)


This is where we depart. You are misunderstanding the state of knowledge of atomic physics. Obviously there is no "empirical evidence" to the effect that decay rates don't change over a period of a billion years, since in order to have such evidence we would need to have a billion years of decay rate data as opposed to the hundred or so years of data that we actually have.

However, this data is unnecessary to the point at hand, since if our understanding of things like nuclear decay rates were wrong, we wouldn't be able to build e.g. PET scanners. Science is not like a quilt that you can put a hole in one part but the rest of the quilt is still there. Some parts of science are like that, and some disciplines operate pretty much independently of each other, but quantum mechanics is absolutely not like that.

If nuclear decay rates were variable (apart from the fact that decay reactions are statistical, probabilistic processes) then our whole understanding of atomic physics would be completely wrong. We would be so wrong that there wouldn't be any way to, for example, build an atomic bomb. In fact a lot of the people who worked on the atomic bomb had gotten their start by working on nuclear decay; Fermi for instance received his Nobel in 1938 for his work on neutrons, which was an extension of his work on beta decay. It was only possible to build the atom bomb because our understanding of e.g. decay rates was so accurate, and so intimately related to our understanding of every other facet of nuclear physics.

So I do understand why it sounds weird to quote a "theory" in support of an argument, but quantum mechanics isn't "just a theory," it is a verified and very well understood description of how atomic-scale phenomena work. Is there more to learn? Sure. But in much the same way that general relativity didn't replace Newton's law of gravitation, only expanded upon it and demonstrated that it was a special case for low-energy phenomena, any future developments in e.g. quantum electrodynamics or quantum gravity will absolutely have to account for what we already know, which is that half-lives, like spectral lines, are an inherent property of the nuclei under consideration.
_bcuzbcuz
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

subgenius wrote:Image

Atheists...our modern day Pharisees
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. - Matthew 15:14


Somehow I'm not surprised that you use a metaphor that is both demeaning in its crudeness, yet inaccurate (since its reference is to Flavor Aid, not Kool-aid).

Your allusion to Pharisees only furthers my point. As an atheist I acknowledge my blindness and seek to lead no one. As an atheist I am well aware there is danger in following someone merely because he/she shout the loudest.

You are very prone to shouting, so I will obviously not follow you.

Falling into ditches is one of the drawbacks of being blind. However, being blind, I have also learned how to get out of ditches without looking to others to find a way out for me. I do not stay stuck in a rut, as those who claim to know their way around. Those who think they have sight tend to wallow in the mud, quite ignorant that there is life outside the ditch.

Next time, try to find a picture of Flavor Aid if you wish to insult.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_subgenius
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _subgenius »

Samantabhadra wrote:This is where we depart. You are misunderstanding the state of knowledge of atomic physics.

i do not think we depart as much as you may hope...i think we just have different depths of understanding for this topic, in this context.
For example, the decay rate is not a lynch pin for the validity of atomic science...but my inquiry as to its reliability over time is valid...remember the influence that the numerous nuclear tests/explosions may have?

The radioactive decay modes of electron capture and internal conversion are known to be slightly sensitive to chemical and environmental effects which change the electronic structure of the atom, which in turn affects the presence of 1s and 2s electrons that participate in the decay process. (emphasis mine)
It is rather careless to assume that there were no local or even global chemical and environmental effects over the course of 10 million years.
Now that being said, i am not advocating throwing out atomic science or that radiometric dating does not have a certain application. However, when it comes to many things in life, one must surely recognize the need to discern from among many sources....and to not confuse one for the other.
So, while we may cite radiometric dating as "valid", we surely can not disregard the fact that it is based on probability theory...see also the Poisson process.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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_subgenius
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _subgenius »

bcuzbcuz wrote:Somehow I'm not surprised that you use a metaphor that is both demeaning in its crudeness, yet inaccurate (since its reference is to Flavor Aid, not Kool-aid).

its a popular phrase...commercial product accuracy has no bearing on its meaning.
but hey....your first fallacy

Your allusion to Pharisees only furthers my point.

what point was that? the Flavor-Aid point?
As an atheist I acknowledge my blindness and seek to lead no one. As an atheist I am well aware there is danger in following someone merely because he/she shout the loudest.

:neutral:

You are very prone to shouting, so I will obviously not follow you.

your second fallacy

Falling into ditches is one of the drawbacks of being blind. However, being blind, I have also learned how to get out of ditches without looking to others to find a way out for me. I do not stay stuck in a rut, as those who claim to know their way around. Those who think they have sight tend to wallow in the mud, quite ignorant that there is life outside the ditch.

quite the mixed metaphor here :eek:
People who have sight tend to wallow in the mud??
Don't they also avoid falling into ditches?
So you escape the rut of not being in a ditch, by falling into a ditch?


Next time, try to find a picture of Flavor Aid if you wish to insult.

http://www.wacky-packages.net/lost-wack ... OL-AID.jpg
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_gdemetz
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _gdemetz »

Of course, the oceans have water already, and I'm sure the sea levels would have been raised a bit. How much would you think? I guess that depends on what flavor of PHD you like. As far as the arguments that there wouldn't have been enough time for the earth to reach its present population is concerned, that reminds me of the foolish king who agreed to his mathematicians request concerning his reward. The mathematician requested only one grain of rice (or whatever it was) to be placed on a chessboard, and that each square of the chessboard be doubled thereafter. The foolish king agreed, but after only the third row it began to dawn on the king that he would not have enough grains in all his kingdom to give for the reward! The story doesn't say what happened after that, but I suspect that the king may have gotten rid of his mathematician in one way or another!
_SteelHead
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _SteelHead »

Sorry Gd, but even ignoring the lack of a genetically viable population, with straight exponential growth and around 17-20 year generations, you don't even get close to 25 million from 8 in 350 years.
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_ludwigm
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _ludwigm »

SteelHead wrote:Sorry Gd, but even ignoring the lack of a genetically viable population, with straight exponential growth and around 17-20 year generations, you don't even get close to 25 million from 8 in 350 years.

Sorry SH, You are wrong.

You don't have the spirit, don't hear the voices.

Image
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_gdemetz
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _gdemetz »

I don't know where you are getting those numbers from, but I was referring to the present population from that time.
_Drifting
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _Drifting »

Drifting wrote:
Drifting wrote:
According to Jeffers R Holland (and as referenced by gdemetz) the continents split when the flood waters receded circa 2,300 bc.

Do you agree with Elder Holland?


Bumping to give subby the opportunity to avoid becoming the recipient of a white feather...



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowardice
Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient mental robustness and courage in the face of a challenge.
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_bcuzbcuz
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Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

When did carnivores become carnivores? Someone stated here that at first carnivores were all plant eaters. So when did they start eating meat?
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
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