God's Promise to Send Elijah before the Second Coming

[_madeleine]

Ohhhh now I see. Malachi 4:5 in the KJV is translated to Elijah, but the New Testament verses I quoted translated to Elias.

So Mormons think they are two different people? I don't remember hearing that before.

The Old Testament widely used in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus was the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Torah. Malachi 4:5 in the Septuagint is this:

καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω ὑμῖν Ηλιαν τὸν Θεσβίτην πρὶν ἐλθεῖν ἡμέραν κυρίου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐπιφανῆ

The KJV translators translated the New Testament Greek Ηλιαν to Elias, instead of Elijah and the Hebrew אֱלִיָּהוּ from the Old Testament texts to to Elijah. That is all that has been done.

[_Themis]

Ohhhh now I see. Malachi 4:5 in the KJV is translated to Elijah, but the New Testament verses I quoted translated to Elias.

So Mormons think they are two different people? I don't remember hearing that before.

My understanding is that Joseph learned later that they were one and the same, but since he had already had them as two different people he had come up with a way to save face. These are the kind of mistakes we expect of someone who is making it up.

[_madeleine]

Yes, it refers to John the Baptist, Christ, and Elias himself, of whom the term comes from, or anyone else who comes in that spirit. Obviously, it has a broad meaning. As I stated before, John's name was not Elias, but Christ referred to him using that term.

gdemetz, I think I see what you are saying now.

At the Mt. of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah are there, representing the Law and the Prophets. Jesus is the fulfillment of both. When Jesus says John is Elijah, He isn't referring to a spirit, or a reincarnation and he isn't giving John a new name. He is saying, John is the fulfillment of the prophecy. Period. A fulfilled prophecy isn't waiting to be fulfilled again.

The Jews he is speaking to know the Messianic prophesies. The New Testament writers are constantly pointing out the Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, as evidence of who he is. This is one of those instances, where Jesus lets his audience know who he is by the evidence of a prophecy that has been fulfilled. He is essentially telling them, very boldly, "I am the Messiah that is prophesied by Malachi".

He is there, therefore, it is not a prophesy waiting for the Messiah to come any longer.

[_ludwigm]

Ohhhh now I see. Malachi 4:5 in the KJV is translated to Elijah, but the New Testament verses I quoted translated to Elias.

So Mormons think they are two different people? I don't remember hearing that before.
...
The KJV translators translated the New Testament Greek Ηλιαν to Elias, instead of Elijah and the Hebrew אֱלִיָּהוּ from the Old Testament texts to to Elijah. That is all that has been done.

Yes. And the apologists are meticulously blowing smoke around it. They made 6-8 different definition to the name Elias, to cover the fact You described in two sentence.

As the summary of the Bible Dictionary item about Elias says:

Thus the word Elias has many applications and has been placed upon many persons as a title pertaining to both preparatory and restorative functions. It is evident from the questions they asked that both the Jewish leaders and the disciples of Jesus knew something about the doctrine of Elias, but the fragmentary information in our current Bibles is not sufficient to give an adequate understanding of what was involved in use of the term. Only by divine revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith is this topic brought into focus for us who live in the last days.

[Guest]

As the summary of the Bible Dictionary item about Elias says:

Thus the word Elias has many applications and has been placed upon many persons as a title pertaining to both preparatory and restorative functions. It is evident from the questions they asked that both the Jewish leaders and the disciples of Jesus knew something about the doctrine of Elias, but the fragmentary information in our current Bibles is not sufficient to give an adequate understanding of what was involved in use of the term. Only by divine revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith is this topic brought into focus for us who live in the last days.

Interesting. This is making something simple into something rather extravagant.

Yeah, the Jews, Jesus and his disciples most certainly knew something about Elias. He is a major prophet in the Torah!

[_ludwigm]

When Jesus says John is Elijah, He isn't referring to a spirit, or a reincarnation and he isn't giving John a new name. He is saying, John is the fulfillment of the prophecy. Period.

Oh, You simple-minded non-mormon detractor!

Dare You talk about linear equations solved by elementary algebra?

I apprise You of the real Elias equation:
That is an indeterminate equation for which there is an infinite set of solutions.
Indeterminate equations cannot be directly solved from the given information. Only by revelation...

Elias. There are several uses of this word in the scriptures. (1) It is the N.T. (Greek) form of Elijah (Hebrew), as in Luke 4:25–26, James 5:17, and Matt. 17:1–4. Elias in these instances can only be the ancient prophet Elijah whose ministry is recorded in 1 and 2 Kings. The curious wording of JST Mark 9:3 does not imply that the Elias at the Transfiguration was John the Baptist, but that in addition to Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist was present. (2) Elias is also a title for one who is a forerunner, for example, John the Baptist, as in JST Matt. 11:13–14, JST Matt. 17:10–13, and JST John 1:19–28. These passages are sufficiently clarified to show that anciently two Eliases were spoken of, one as a preparer and the other a restorer. John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus, Jesus himself being the Restorer who brought back the gospel and the Melchizedek Priesthood to the Jews in his day (see JST John 1:20–28, in the Appendix). In this particular instance there is reflected also the comparative functions of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods. (3) The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill, for example, John the Revelator (D&C 77:14); and Noah or Gabriel (D&C 27:6–7, cf. Luke 1:11–20). (4) A man called Elias apparently lived in mortality in the days of Abraham, who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland (Ohio) Temple on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110:12). We have no specific information as to the details of his mortal life or ministry.

[_madeleine]

When Jesus says John is Elijah, He isn't referring to a spirit, or a reincarnation and he isn't giving John a new name. He is saying, John is the fulfillment of the prophecy. Period.

Oh, You simple-minded non-mormon detractor!

Dare You talk about linear equations solved by elementary algebra?

I apprise You of the real Elias equation:
That is an indeterminate equation for which there is an infinite set of solutions.
Indeterminate equations cannot be directly solved from the given information. Only by revelation...

Elias. There are several uses of this word in the scriptures. (1) It is the N.T. (Greek) form of Elijah (Hebrew), as in Luke 4:25–26, James 5:17, and Matt. 17:1–4. Elias in these instances can only be the ancient prophet Elijah whose ministry is recorded in 1 and 2 Kings. The curious wording of JST Mark 9:3 does not imply that the Elias at the Transfiguration was John the Baptist, but that in addition to Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist was present. (2) Elias is also a title for one who is a forerunner, for example, John the Baptist, as in JST Matt. 11:13–14, JST Matt. 17:10–13, and JST John 1:19–28. These passages are sufficiently clarified to show that anciently two Eliases were spoken of, one as a preparer and the other a restorer. John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus, Jesus himself being the Restorer who brought back the gospel and the Melchizedek Priesthood to the Jews in his day (see JST John 1:20–28, in the Appendix). In this particular instance there is reflected also the comparative functions of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods. (3) The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill, for example, John the Revelator (D&C 77:14); and Noah or Gabriel (D&C 27:6–7, cf. Luke 1:11–20). (4) A man called Elias apparently lived in mortality in the days of Abraham, who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland (Ohio) Temple on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110:12). We have no specific information as to the details of his mortal life or ministry.

Wow!

It's a most superb fan fiction, I'll give it that. :)

[_ludwigm]

Wow!

It's a most superb fan fiction, I'll give it that. :)

No. It is clear, straight theology.

Kind of.

[_gdemetz]

Madeleine, thanks for seeing what I was saying. Of course, I know that Elias is the Greek form for Elijah. Joseph Smith knew that also. Ludwig, thanks for the good Bible dictionary quote too. Don't get me wrong, I love Martin Luther. He was a great man! However, even he admitted he was not a prophet. In his own words:

"I do not say that I am a prophet. I simply say that they will have to be afraid of this as long as they scorn me and heed themselves... If I am not a prophet, at least I am sure of this, that the word of God is with me, and not with them, for I have the scriptures on my side while they have only their own teachings...But do I preach a new doctrine? No, I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it--the bishops and scholars."

I praise you Martin Luther for the courage you showed in standing up to the Catholic church for the cause of right!

[_ludwigm]

Of course, I know that Elias is the Greek form for Elijah.

Of course.

Joseph Smith knew that also.

No, he didn't.

Joseph Discourses on Elias - Elijah - Messiah
A large assembly of the Saints met at the temple & was addressed by President Joseph Smith upon one of the most important & interesting subjects ever presented to the saints & the principles presented were of the greatest importance to be understood it was as follows the work & calling & spirit of Elias, Elijah, & Mesiah The following is a synopsis of the discourse

Their is a difference between the spirit & office of Elias & Elijah

Spirit of Elias - Forerunner - Preparer - John the Baptist - Aaronic Priesthood
it is the spirit of Elias I wish first to speak of. And in order to come at the subject I will bring some of the testimony from the scripture & give my own, in the first place suffice it to say I went into the woods to inquire of the Lord by prayer his will concerning me---& I saw an angel & he laid his hands upon my head & ordained me to be a priest after the order of Aaron & to hold the keys of this priesthood which office was to preach repentance & Baptism for the remission of sins & also to baptize but was informed that this office did not extend to the laying on of hands for the giving of the Holy Ghost that that office was a greater work & was to be given after wards but that my ordination was a preparetory work or a going before which was the spirit of Elias for the spirit of Elias was a going before to prepare the way for the greater, which was the Case with John the Baptist he Came balling through the wilderness prepare ye the way of the Lord & make his paths strait & they were informed if they Could receive it it was the spirit of Elias & John was very particular to tell the people He was not that light but was sent to bear witness of that light, He told the people that his mission was to preach repentance & baptize with water, but it was he that should Come after him that should baptize with fire & the Holy Ghost if he had been an imposture he might have gone to work beyound, his bounds & undertook to have performed ordinances that did not belong to that office & calling under the spirit of Elias. The spirit of Elias is to prepare the way for a greater revelation of God which is the priesthood of Elias or the Priesthood that Aaron was ordained unto. And when God sends a man into the world to prepare for a greater work holds the keys of the power of Elias it was called the doctrin of Elias even from the early ages of the world. John,s mission was limited to preaching & Baptizing but what he done was legal & when Jesus Christ Came to any of John,s disciples He baptized them with fire & the Holy Ghost, we find the Apostles endowed with greater power than John their office was more under the spirit & power of Elijah than Elias. In the Case of Philip when he went down to Samaria was under the spirit of Elias he baptised both men & women, when Peter & John herd of it they went down & lade hands on them & they received the Holy Ghost this shows the distinction between the two powers. when paul came to Certain Disciples He asked if they had received the Holy Ghost they said no, who baptized you then we were Baptizd unto Johns Baptism No John did not baptized you for he did his work right, & so Paul went & baptized them for He knew what the true doctrin was & he knew that John Had not Baptized them, & these principles and it is strange to me that men who have red the scriptures of the New Testament are so far from it. What I want to impress upon your minds is, the difference of power in the different parts of the Priesthood, so that when any man comes among you saying I have the spirit of Elias you can know whether he be true or fals, for any man that comes having the spirit & power of Elias he will not transcend his bounds, John did not transcend his bound but faithfully performed that part belonging to his office, and evry portion of the great building should be prepared right & assigned to its proper place, & it is necessary to know who holds the keys of power & who don't, or we may be likely to be decieved, That person who holds the keys of Elias hath a preparatory work,

Elijah - Keys of Revelations - Ordinances of Fullness of Priesthood
But if I spend much more time in conversing about the spirit of Elias I shall not have time to do justice to the spirit & power of Elijah, this is the Elias spoken of in the last days & here is the rock upon which many split thinking the time was past in the days of John & Christ & no more to be, but the spirit of Elias was revealed to me & I know it is true therefore I speak with boldness for I know verily my doctrine is true. Now for Elijah, the spirit power & calling of Elijah is that ye have power to hold the keys of the revelations ordinances, oricles powers & endowments of the fulness of the Melchezedek Priesthood & of the Kingdom of God on the Earth & to receive, obtain & perform all the ordinances belonging to the Kingdom of God even unto the sealing of the hearts of the hearts fathers unto the children & the hearts of the children unto the fathers even those who are in heaven. Malachi says I will send Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come & He shall turn the hearts of the Fathers to the Children and the hearts of the Children to the Fathers lest I come & smite the earth with a Curse, Now what I am after is the knowledge of God & I take my own Course to obtain it, what are we to understand by this in the last days, in the days of Noah God destroyed the world by a flood & has promised to destroy it by fire in the last days but before it took place Elijah should first come & turn the hearts of the Fathers to the Children &c

Work of Elijah - Not Confined to Living
now comes the point what is this office & work of Elijah, it is one of the greatest & most important subjects that God has revealed, He should send Elijah to seal the children to the fathers & fathers to the Children, Now was this merely confined to the living to settle difficulties with families on earth, by no means, it was a far greater work Elijah what would you do if you was here would you confine confine your work to the living alone. No I confine would refer you to the scriptures whare the subject is manifest, i.e, without us they could not be made perfect, nor we without them, the fathers without the children nor the children without the fathers. I wish you to understand this subject for it is important & if you will receive it this is the spirit of Elijah that we redeam our dead & connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven & seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection & here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those which dwell in heaven this is the power of Elijah & the keys of the Kingdom of Jehovah. Let us suppose a case; suppose the great God who dwells in heaven should reveal himself to Father Cutler here by the opening heavens and tell him I offer up a decree that whatsoever you seal on earth with your decree I will seal it in heaven, you have power then, can it be taken of No, Then what you seal on earth by the Keys of Elijah is sealed in heaven, & this is the power of Elijah, & this is the difference between the spirit & power of Elias and Elijah, for while the spirit of Elias is a forerunner

Elijah's Power can Make Calling & Election Sure - Anointing
the power of Elijah is sufficient to make our calling & Election sure, & the same doctrin whare we are exhorted to go on unto perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works but of laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead &c. we cannot be perfect without the fathers, &c we must have revelations then & we can see that the doctrin of revelation as far transcends the doctrin of no revelation as knowlede is above ignorance for one truth revealed from heaven is worth all the sectarian notions in exhistence.

Power of Elijah- Seal up to Hell - Once in Grace?
This spirit of Elijah was manifest in the days of the Apostles in delivering certain ones to the buffitings of Satan that they may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, they were sealed by the spirit of Elijah unto the damnation of Hell untill the day of the Lord or revealtion of Jesus Christ Here is the doctrin of Election that the world have quarreled so much about, but they do not know any thing about it, The doctrin that the Prysbeterians & Methodist have quarreled so much about once in grace always in grace, or falling away from grace I will say a word about, they are both wrong, truth takes a road between them both. for while the Presbyterian says once in grace you cannot fall the Methodist says you can have grace to day, fall from it to morrow, next day have grace again & so follow it, but the doctrin of the scriptures & the spirit of Elijah would show them both fals & take a road between them both for according to the scriptures if a man has receive the good word of God & tasted of the powers of the world to come if they shall fall away it is impossible to renew them again, seeing they have Crucified the son of God afresh & put him to an open frame shame, so their is a possibility of falling away you could not be renewed again, & the power of

2 Reserves in the Absolute Seals of Priesthood
Elijah Cannot seal against this sin, for this is a reserve made in the seals & power of the priesthood, I will make evry doctrin plain that I present & it shall stand upon a firm bases And I am at the defiance of the world for I will take shelter under the broad sheler cover of the wings of the work in which I am ingaged, it matters not to me if aIl hell boils over I regard it ownly as I would the crackling of thorns under a pot A murderer; for instance one that sheds innocent Blood Cannot have forgiveness, David sought repentance at the hand of God Carefully with tears, but he could ownly get it through Hell, he got a promise that his soul should not be left in Hell, Although David was a King he never did obtain the spirit & power of Elijah & the fulness of the Priesthood, & the priesthood that he received & the throne & kingdom of David is to be taken from him & given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his linage Peter refered to the same subject on the day of pentecost, but the multitude did not get the endowment that Peter had but several days after the people asked what shall we do, Peter says I would ye had done it ignorantly speaking of crucifying the Lord &c He did not say to them repent & be baptized for the remission of your sins but he said repent therefore & be converted that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, Acts iii, 19 this is the case with murderers they could not be baptized for the remission of sins for they had shed innocent Blood.
Again the doctrin or sealing power of Elijah is as follows if you have power to seal on earth & in heaven then we should be Crafty, the first thing you do go & seal on earth your sons & daughters unto yourself, & yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory, & go ahead and not go back, but use a little Craftiness & seal all you can; & when you get to heaven tell your father that what you seal on earth should be sealed in heaven I will walk through the gate of heaven and Claim what I seal & those that follow me & my Council

Lord Tells Joseph he can Have Whatever he Asks
The Lord once told me that what I asked for I should have, I have been afraid to aske to ask God to kill my enemies lest some of them should peradventure should repent I asked a short time, since for the Lord to deliver me out of the hands of the Govornor of Missouri & if it must needs be to accomplish it to take him away, & the next news that Came pouring down from their, was Governor Reynolds had shot himself, and I would now say beware O earth how you fight against the Saints of God & shed innocent Blood, for in the days of Elijah his enemies came upon him & fire was Called down from heaven & destroyed them, the spirit of Elias is first Elijah second, & Masiah last. Elias is a fore runner to prepare the way, & the spirit & power of Elijah is to come after holding the keys of power building the Temple to the Cap stone, placing the seals of the Melchezedeck priesthood up on the house of Israel & making alI things ready

Messiah - Above Elijah - Christ and Old Testament
then Mesiah comes to his Temple which is last of all. Mesiah is above the spirit & power of Elijah, for he made the world & was that spiritual rock unto Moses in the wilderness. Elijah was to come & prepare the way & build up the kingdom before the coming of the great day of the Lord Although the spirit of Elias might begin it,

Sign of Second Coming
I have asked of the Lord concerning his coming & while asking, the Lord gave me a sign & said in the days of Noah I set a bow in the heavens as a sign & token that in any year that the bow should be seen the Lord would not come, but their should be seed time--harvest during that year, but when ever you see the bow withdraw, it shall be a token that their shall be famin pestilance & great distress among the nations. But I take the responsibility upon myself to prophesy in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come this year as William Miller has prophecyed, for we have seen the bow. And I also Prophecy in the name of the Lord that Christ will not Come in forty years & if God ever spake by my mouth he will not come in that length of time & Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that he would come, go & read the scriptures & you cannot find any thing that specified the exact^hour he would come & all that say so are fals teachers. Their are some important things concerning the office of the Mesiah in the organization of the worlds which I will speak of hereafter. May God Almighty bless you & pour out his spirit upon you is the prayer of your unworthy servant Amen.

As You see, two things Joseph Smith don't talk about:
- Elijah and Elias are the same person under different names
- Who is Elias (when did he live, what did he do, what did he say...)

My understanding is that Joseph learned later that they were one and the same, but since he had already had them as two different people he had come up with a way to save face.

And that March 10, 1844 sermon was the clear, plain, comprehensible explanation.