The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

[_gdemetz]

OK, I'll agree with that.

[_Franktalk]

I see no problem with God who fashioned the universe being able to make a flood which covered the whole earth. There is lots of evidence of massive floods in earths past. You just have to look for it.

[_Themis]

I see no problem with God who fashioned the universe being able to make a flood which covered the whole earth.

No one else does either. This just shows you don't understand the issue. The issue is not accepting that the God of the universe(assuming he/she/they exist) could cause it, but that we don't see any evidence that she did, and we see mountains of evidence that one never occurred.

There is lots of evidence of massive floods in earths past. You just have to look for it.

Sure we do. None of them are big enough to even be a drop in the bucket of what you would need to cover the whole earth. Some of the best ones are the result of ice dams breaking. When they break they do so quickly and massive amounts of water are released in a short time.

[_Franktalk]

Sure we do. None of them are big enough to even be a drop in the bucket of what you would need to cover the whole earth. Some of the best ones are the result of ice dams breaking. When they break they do so quickly and massive amounts of water are released in a short time.

So according to scripture how long did the flood last? If this was a slow event what kind of evidence do you think would be left? If this was a supernatural flood what kind of erosion would take place? If supernatural then there is the possibility that no erosion would take place. When the Jews were in the desert for 40 years their clothes did not wear and their shoes did not wear out. Is the earth like a shoe to the Lord? Or should I ask if the earth is like a footstool to the Lord?

I enjoyed reading "Wandering Continents and Spreading Sea floors on an Expanding Earth" It is a detailed account of the past from an eye open view of the geologic evidence on the earth. The author, Lester King is not a creationist. He looks at the data and tries to fit the evidence into a theory of the past. He believes that the earth has actually expanded over time. I hold to that same opinion. It is the best fit for the data. The exact mechanism for that to happen is unknown. I think that the most eye opening thing in the book is when he discusses how water is mixed with liquid rock. Very interesting indeed.

[_Themis]

So according to scripture how long did the flood last? If this was a slow event what kind of evidence do you think would be left? If this was a supernatural flood what kind of erosion would take place? If supernatural then there is the possibility that no erosion would take place. When the Jews were in the desert for 40 years their clothes did not wear and their shoes did not wear out. Is the earth like a shoe to the Lord? Or should I ask if the earth is like a footstool to the Lord?

Using another story which probably never happened is not a very good way to promote the idea of a global flood. One of the big problems for a global flood is that humans, animals and plants did not die off. You might start with that and why humans all over the world keep on going before and after the flood.

I enjoyed reading "Wandering Continents and Spreading Sea floors on an Expanding Earth" It is a detailed account of the past from an eye open view of the geologic evidence on the earth. The author, Lester King is not a creationist. He looks at the data and tries to fit the evidence into a theory of the past. He believes that the earth has actually expanded over time. I hold to that same opinion. It is the best fit for the data. The exact mechanism for that to happen is unknown. I think that the most eye opening thing in the book is when he discusses how water is mixed with liquid rock. Very interesting indeed.

I am not sure why people have such a problem with links.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=4516800

[_Franktalk]

Themis,

Your link was just as I expected. It was an opinion piece that conveyed the orthodox view of geology. If you live by a show of hands of so called experts you will have no opinion of your own. I have read many books on geology and have enjoyed all of them. I suspect that you have not read many at all. I may be wrong. If I am please list some that you have read. The two books written by Lester King that I have are both well documented and offer a fresh look at theories dealing with the geologic past of the earth. Apparently the author of the opinion piece you linked to has not written a book on geology. At least none that I could find. Maybe you could point me to one. Without a sample of A. Hallam's work showing how he forms opinions of geologic processes I have to hold his opinion at the same level as whale droppings.

[_Themis]

Themis,

Your link was just as I expected. It was an opinion piece that conveyed the orthodox view of geology. If you live by a show of hands of so called experts you will have no opinion of your own.

It's not a surprise that you would go against the established science if it goes against your religious beliefs. No one has to go with what they say, but they should at least understand the science if they want to propose something else and show the evidence for why it should be accepted.

I have read many books on geology and have enjoyed all of them. I suspect that you have not read many at all. I may be wrong. If I am please list some that you have read.

I have taken a number of courses in geology in university.

The two books written by Lester King that I have are both well documented and offer a fresh look at theories dealing with the geologic past of the earth. Apparently the author of the opinion piece you linked to has not written a book on geology. At least none that I could find. Maybe you could point me to one. Without a sample of A. Hallam's work showing how he forms opinions of geologic processes I have to hold his opinion at the same level as whale droppings.

That you think they have to write a book to have some kind of authority is telling. Feel free to provide what evidences you think are important, but lets get back on topic. We are discussing Noah's flood. I brought up that we see that humans, animals and plants do all of a sudden die out. There is a continuous record in many sciences independent of each other that show they continue on just fine. This is only a few of the big problems for a global flood.

[_Franktalk]

That you think they have to write a book to have some kind of authority is telling. Feel free to provide what evidences you think are important, but lets get back on topic. We are discussing Noah's flood. I brought up that we see that humans, animals and plants do all of a sudden die out. There is a continuous record in many sciences independent of each other that show they continue on just fine. This is only a few of the big problems for a global flood.

The problem is simple. You deny that God has supernatural powers. There are many who hold that same view. It is an extension of an ancient thought. Many feel that they will only believe what they actually see or if information comes from someone they trust. Just who do you trust? I can see that you don't trust the scriptures.

In my world man has and will continue to declare he knows things and has processes all figured out. But those same men will find some new thing and change all of their beliefs. So the ground is solid one place and then the ground is solid somewhere else. I find it fascinating how some will with absolute authority declare a truth just to change their mind and declare some other thing an absolute truth. So they are ready at a moments notice to believe something else yet demand that I accept their temporary truth without question. Does it strike you as odd? I guess maybe it does not strike you as odd. Some get so buried in the process that they miss the big picture,

[_Drifting]

That you think they have to write a book to have some kind of authority is telling. Feel free to provide what evidences you think are important, but lets get back on topic. We are discussing Noah's flood. I brought up that we see that humans, animals and plants do all of a sudden die out. There is a continuous record in many sciences independent of each other that show they continue on just fine. This is only a few of the big problems for a global flood.

The problem is simple. You deny that God has supernatural powers. There are many who hold that same view. It is an extension of an ancient thought. Many feel that they will only believe what they actually see or if information comes from someone they trust. Just who do you trust? I can see that you don't trust the scriptures.

In my world man has and will continue to declare he knows things and has processes all figured out. But those same men will find some new thing and change all of their beliefs. So the ground is solid one place and then the ground is solid somewhere else. I find it fascinating how some will with absolute authority declare a truth just to change their mind and declare some other thing an absolute truth. So they are ready at a moments notice to believe something else yet demand that I accept their temporary truth without question. Does it strike you as odd? I guess maybe it does not strike you as odd. Some get so buried in the process that they miss the big picture,

Frank,

There is no visible break in the life span of civilizations around the globe. If a worldwide flood, designed to rid the world of everyone except Noah and his family, took place then life (all life) should have ended suddenly and not started again for hundeds if not thousands of years later, when Noah and his family had done enough procreating to repopulate the planet.

God's supernatural powers do not explain this lack of a break in life.

[_Tobin]

The problem is simple. You deny that God has supernatural powers. There are many who hold that same view. It is an extension of an ancient thought. Many feel that they will only believe what they actually see or if information comes from someone they trust. Just who do you trust? I can see that you don't trust the scriptures.

That is exactly the problem with these guys that believe in this God. This God is worthless. It is a fiction, a fantasy, a fraud, and certainly not the God of the scriptures which had an active hand in the affairs of mankind and would appear and speak with them. A God that does nothing, speaks to no-one, and can not demonstrate he exists is pointless.