Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_gdemetz]

Some who practice priestcraft are better at it than others. You didn't address my points, including the one about evidence of New Testament times alter calls.

[_Albion]

I have addressed all of your essential points but find it impossible to address all of the shotgun points you so often make, jumping all over the place such that it is difficult to even know where to begin. Experience tells me it is a tactic used by many Mormons and does perhaps mirror the very nature of Mormon theology which so often has as much substance as a bucketful of smoke. See my response to your altar call charge on the other thread......Somehow, I doubt very much that you will really read and comprehend it but typically you will launch into some other topic completely.

[_gdemetz]

I will read it. I know very well where you are coming from. I have attended the so called born again (Boy, was that taken out of context!) services for many years!

[_Albion]

I doubt that I have ever heard Mormons use the term"born again" in official meetings. Tell me, gdemetz, when and how does the "born again" experience take place for Mormons? Is it when they step out of the baptismal font and see all that sin being washed away down the drain....when they supposedly receive the "holy ghost" from an elder...or is it when they are interviewed to see if they are a "candidate" for baptism and thus church membership. No tricks questions here gdemetz...just want you to state the Mormon position.

[_gdemetz]

The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are; first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which meaning includes enough faith to follow His instructions), and second repentance from sin (which is what the prophets have cried from the very beginning), and third is baptism (born of the water as part of the doctrine that Christ Himself taught and practiced), and fourth is the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (born of the Spirit) which was done in the primitive church also after every baptism where there was the proper melchezidek priesthood authority to do so (see Hebrews 6th chapter).

[_Franktalk]

Albion,

For me the born again moment was when I was reading a book on quantum mechanics. I realized that this world is not the greater reality. The moment I stepped out of this world my spirit woke up where it had been suppressed for so long. I felt my own spirit and knew I had opened a door. The rest was easy.

I know that any Church of men has problems. So what. But the Church that holds to the "present truth" as stated by Peter is doing OK. And as promised Peter came back after his death to restore the present truth.

2Pe 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Here Peter is talking to believers in front of him. I also believe this is a prophecy of the future. There will come a time when the present truth will be remembered. This happened when Peter came back and visited Joseph Smith.

[_Albion]

Firtstly for gdemetz. I did know that was the Mormon position. It does, of course, vary greatly from the Christian position in that the "born again" experience, when the repentant sinner, under conviction, acknowledges their sinfulness and the need for a saving experience with Christ. At that moment the sinner receives the spirit...the old is done away and the sinner is reborn to new life in Christ. Born again is the Biblical term for spiritual rebirth but whatever term is used to describe it it is that encounter with Christ which results in a change of direction for the one reborn. It is the Christian, and Biblical position, that baptism then follows as the demonstration of what has transpired in the changed heart of the new believer. It was a very real and meaningful experience in my life.

Franktalk, I suppose we all have epithany moments in our lives and I will not dispute yours though Jesus does seem to be conspicuous by his absence. I cannot accept in anyway the references you gave as somehow alluding to or pointing to Joseph Smith...."In times PAST God spoke" to us be his prophets but today we have the fullness of God's grace and the revelation of himself in Christ. I am sorry, but I see absolutely nothing in Joseph Smith's life or character that convinces me of any prophetic calling.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk, I suppose we all have epithany moments in our lives and I will not dispute yours though Jesus does seem to be conspicuous by his absence. I cannot accept in anyway the references you gave as somehow alluding to or pointing to Joseph Smith...."In times PAST God spoke" to us be his prophets but today we have the fullness of God's grace and the revelation of himself in Christ. I am sorry, but I see absolutely nothing in Joseph Smith's life or character that convinces me of any prophetic calling.

As long as you love God all is well.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, it irks me when you say, "the Christian position! The truly Christian position is the Mormon position! Didn't you read all the scholarly writings I quoted to you about the true meaning of born of the water and Spirit?! These were from non Mormon sources!

[_Albion]

Well, gdemetz, since what I post is far and away the position of Christians around the world and the Mormon Church is not viewed as a Christian church I will have to stick with the designation. It wasn't so many years ago that Mormonism did not want to be identified under the banner "Christian" much preferring the term Mormon. I supposes with the softening of Mormon doctrine and the apparent efforts by the Mormon Church to appear mainstream the term Christian has more appeal to it nowadays. It will have to shed a great deal more of its bizarre doctrine before it can truly be termed a Christian church. One just has to look at how the fundamentalist Mormons practice more closely the Mormonism of Smith's day than the Salt Lake church to see how far it has come. I am hopeful that one day the Mormon Church will preach sufficiency in Christ Jesus as the only hope for full salvation.