Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Tobin]

Yea, that's true. What a scary thought!

It isn't pleasant. I feel sorry for him. I was like he was for many years. I was an ex-mormon and an atheist until I received that witness. It's too bad, but I hope one day that he'll have that witness, humble himself and come back to God.

[_gdemetz]

Me too! I will pray for them tonight, and I hope God will hear my prayer despite my bitchiness! LOL!

[_madeleine]

I know the Catholic teaching, but it is absolutely wrong! "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High." Do you know anything that can not become like its progenitors?! "That by these ye might be partakers OF THE DIVINE NATURE." "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne just as I overcame and am sat down with my Father on His throne." It can't be written or explained much simpler than that! We all will become resurrected immortal beings, and can even have authority as a god! "It is my Father's good pleasure TO GIVE YOU THE KINGDOM!!!!!!!

Of course I don't agree with you. You aren't a punky little god in the making and whoever has told you so, has fed you a lie. But it isn't a new lie, it is the oldest lie written (see Genesis).

[_consiglieri]

So I guess what you are saying is that Christianity isn't Christian but Mormonism is.

And here I get a peek into how pissed the Jews must have been for those upstart Christians to start saying they were the real Jews.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_madeleine]

So I guess what you are saying is that Christianity isn't Christian but Mormonism is.

And here I get a peek into how pissed the Jews must have been for those upstart Christians to start saying they were the real Jews.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That must make Joseph Smith the savior of Christianity?


lol.

[_Tobin]

And here I get a peek into how pissed the Jews must have been for those upstart Christians to start saying they were the real Jews.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That must make Joseph Smith the savior of Christianity?


lol.

Well, until the aliens come take over the Earth. Then expect 2000 new commandments. You'll miss Mormonism then. Mark my words.

[_madeleine]

And here I get a peek into how pissed the Jews must have been for those upstart Christians to start saying they were the real Jews.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That must make Joseph Smith the savior of Christianity?


lol.

Well, until the aliens come take over the Earth. Then expect 2000 new commandments. You'll miss Mormonism then. Mark my words.

'If the Catholics got hold of the full facts about Xenu, does this mean they'll get more market share?"'

[_Franktalk]

I suspect we agree more than our discussion up to this point has indicated. Since this thread is supposed to be about the pre-mortal existence, and I know very little about the Mormon version of the Eucharist (which I'm assuming you partake of), how would you feel about a separate thread on this topic? Would it necessarily involve restricted Temple content, or could we conduct the discussion here in Celestial?

We could talk about many things and I am willing. These subjects are very touchy with many people. If I talk about them I may be stoned by Mormons. I have found that many of them are pretty clueless about deep scripture. Very nice people and many spirit driven but doctrine not so much. For I feel the church just glosses over many things trying to be a big net.

[_Franktalk]

Then you cannot view the Bible as inspired, as most of it comes from a Sacred Tradition first, before being written down.

I sort out what is truth by the witness of the Holy Ghost. I have little that has been witnessed. The rest is hard work. I believe in the power of God. If He wants me to receive a message I will. Scripture or not.

I believe Jesus when He said, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you".

Let me ask you, do you carry a cross on your back?

At the supper of the Lamb, which I participate in at every Mass, there is the Blood of the Lamb in the Cup.

I have no problem with that belief. It is however different than my beliefs.

The Real Presence of Jesus is also found in His Word...the four Gospels, and in His Church, which He established and has never failed.

Since you take things quite literal then tell me what these mean?

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me.
2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

You said: "At the supper of the Lamb, which I participate in at every Mass, there is the Blood of the Lamb in the Cup."

So using Rev 19 let me ask a couple of questions.

1. John was in heaven when he saw the supper of the lamb. Are you in Heaven each Sunday?
2. Can you show me the fine linen your were given in heaven?
3. Can you describe to me how you were called to the supper?

[_jo1952]

Both Jews and Catholics have Sacred Tradition, that is, a belief that what God has revealed is found in written scripture, and in the faith that is handed on. Oral tradition being a part of Tradition, but not its entirety. Liturgy is also a major part of the faith handed on. The Feast of the Passover is one such liturgy. Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Hi Madeleine,

It is true that not all of sacred scripture was canonized. Therefore, we do not have everything which was considered Sacred Tradition in our Bibles.

That reminds me, can you explain to me why the Catechisms delete the second of the Ten Commandments, and then split the tenth commandment into two separate commandments in order to keep the same number of ten commandments?

Okay, back to responding to your comments..... The Hebrews did not write down a great deal of their sacred oral traditions until after Christianity was established. One example is the Kabbalah. Before the Kabbalah was written, few Jews were taught the esoteric doctrines contained in this tradition. Only the learned and those who have gained a spiritual perception of their beliefs are taught from the Kabbalah. Within the Zohar, which is part of the Kabbalah, you can find the following quote:

"The souls must re-enter the Absolute, from whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this end they must develop the perfections; the germ of which is planted in them. And if they have not developed these traits in this one life, then they must commence another, a third, and so forth. They must go on like this until they acquire the condition that allows them to associate again with God."

As you can see, the Jews had secret teachings which were not taught to everyone. Also, the above quote indicates that this portion of the secret knowledge was a belief in reincarnation. There are sections in the New Testament which allude to the Apostles and the Pharisees having this same knowledge, which Jesus never corrected anyone on. Yet the RCC does not believe in reincarnation; in fact, you cannot find a section for reincarnation in the Catholic Encyclopedia which explains why the RCC does not believe in it. When books and epistles were being considered for canonization, the Bishops carefully withheld anything written which indicated that reincarnation was actually something many of the Early Church Fathers believed in.

It is not unusual for us to find in the New Testament that Jesus taught knowledge to the Apostles which they were not allowed to teach to all members of the church. Paul specifically taught the church in Corinth that they were not yet ready to be taught "meat". I think he could have been referring to the secret knowledge which the Apostles had been taught. Indeed, Jesus told the Apostles that He had not revealed everything He knew to them; but only that which His Father had told Him to reveal. It would be the Holy Ghost who would reveal Truth to individuals once Father deemed that the individual was ready for more Truth. So, neither the Old Testament or the New Testament reveal all Truth.

I believe Jesus when He said, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you".

Yet, Jesus was not actually cutting off pieces of His flesh, nor draining His blood for man to eat and drink - even though He was with them when He taught them about the Sacrament. In fact, we know that the Paschal Lamb was symbolic of the Christ who was to come. The Hebrews had always been taught, since they received the Law from Moses, that they were NEVER to drink the blood. Why would God change and decide that it would be necessary for mankind to drink blood once Jesus had finally come in the flesh, been crucified, and Resurrected? It is SYMBOLIC!!!

He was not being symbolic. Catholic teaching, east and west, is Jesus is Present, body, blood, soul and divinity. This is not a symbol. Just as if I ask you if you drive a car, and you tell me all about the car you drive, you aren't telling me about a symbol of your car. You are telling me about your car.

I beg to differ with you here, as well. One of the core issues of the Great Schism of 1054 AD between the Eastern Orthodox churches and the church of Rome was over this very concept. The Leader of the Eastern Orthodox churches even excommunicated the Pope in Rome; and the Pope excommunicated the Leader of the Eastern Orthodox churches. Today this issue still divides them.

The idea that the bread and wine actually become the flesh and blood of Christ was NOT a sacred tradition. It "became" sacred tradition when the Pope decided to call it such - which, as you can see, was long after Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth.

Therefore, without the personal witness and confirmation of Truth from the Holy Ghost, I am not quick to believe that sacred written or oral tradition which is taught to us automatically means that the tradition is correct, or that we understand those traditions correctly. The Jews in Jesus' day, knew their written traditions. I do not doubt that the Pharisees, scribes, and the Sadducees knew their oral traditions. Yet they crucified our Savior. Their knowledge of both written and oral traditions failed them in much the same way as I see that written and oral traditions have failed you.

The Real Presence of Jesus is also found in His Word...the four Gospels, and in His Church, which He established and has never failed.

Inasmuch as I do believe that the Gospels are sacred to the believer, I place my dependence for being guided to the Truth held within them to the Holy Ghost. He is the witness on the physical earth of all spiritual Truth. God does not "exist" in a book; He is a living God, Jesus is our living Savior, and the Holy Ghost is living to witness and confirm Truth to us today....here and now.

Blessings,

jo