Correct me if I am wrong about what you believe, but you don't believe Joseph Smith could translate at all. You believe that the golden plates as well as the papyri were triggers (for lack of a better word) that inspired Joseph Smith to write (again for lack of a better word) the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. What's to prevent a lost Spaulding manuscript from being the very same sort of trigger and why would such an event change how you feel about the Book of Mormon? Your testimony of the Book of Mormon does not seem to based on a literal belief in the othordox LDS teachings about Joseph Smith translating something but rather a personal spiritual confirmation of its contents.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
With regards to that Moroni challenge do you really think that it makes sense? The reason I ask is why would God have a concern with regards to whether we believed in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Can God also be relied upon to tell us if Atlantis ever existed, whether there is an abonimable snowman, or what stocks will go up or down? If not then why would he consider it important that we believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon and not the other things?
I don't believe God is concerned with the historicity of the Book of Mormon. That isn't the point. In fact, I really don't care if you don't believe in Mormonism at all. The point is to get you to speak with God and from there establish the truth. That is what Mormonism is or should be about.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Correct me if I am wrong about what you believe, but you don't believe Joseph Smith could translate at all. You believe that the golden plates as well as the papyri were triggers (for lack of a better word) that inspired Joseph Smith to write (again for lack of a better word) the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. What's to prevent a lost Spaulding manuscript from being the very same sort of trigger and why would such an event change how you feel about the Book of Mormon? Your testimony of the Book of Mormon does not seem to based on a literal belief in the othordox LDS teachings about Joseph Smith translating something but rather a personal spiritual confirmation of its contents.
You mistake the intent. The Nephites wrote a record that would in time be translated by the gift and power of God, not by Joseph Smith's ability. He simply had no ability to translate the record and so as I said - that was never the intent. The same is true of the Book of Abraham. Abraham wrote an account. It was lost. It was his intent, by writing a record, that it would come forth. Even though that written account exists no longer.
The mythical Spaulding manuscript simply doesn't exist except as supposed evidence that the Book of Mormon is not true. That is the intent of this invented book and it does not fit God's intent.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:You mistake the intent. The Nephites wrote a record that would in time be translated by the gift and power of God, not by Joseph Smith's ability. He simply had no ability to translate the record and so as I said - that was never the intent. The same is true of the Book of Abraham. Abraham wrote an account. It was lost. It was his intent, by writing a record, that it would come forth. Even though that written account exists no longer.
The mythical Spaulding manuscript simply doesn't exist except as supposed evidence that the Book of Mormon is not true. That is the intent of this invented book and it does not fit God's intent.
Maybe I need to back up a bit.
In the case of the gold plates you believe that what was on them is what is written in the Book of Mormon correct? A literal translation if you will even though J.S. could not actually translate. But in the case of the Book of Abraham, you believe the papyri did not actually contain any references to the Book of Abraham and it served merely as a trigger mechanism?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
In the case of the gold plates you believe that what was on them is what is written in the Book of Mormon correct? A literal translation if you will even though J.S. could not actually translate. But in the case of the Book of Abraham, you believe the papyri did not actually contain any references to the Book of Abraham and it served merely as a trigger mechanism?
You are comparing two different things. The gold plates contained an account written by the Nephites. I don't know how "literal" the translation was since I 1) don't possess the gold plates 2) don't read and write the language and 3) don't understand how one translates a book by the gift and power of god without being able to read and understand the language it is written in (or have a firm grasp of the 17th century English it was translated into).
The Book of Abraham is completely different. It was written by Abraham at one time. The Egyptians obviously would have no interest in preserving that account and would instead have written stories into the copies they made of their own invention and mythos. In this case, the papyri was this degenerate copy which "triggered" Joseph Smith to view the original written account and relate it. Again, Joseph Smith had no ability to translate and did not understand the nature of the papyri in front of him. He made the bad assumption it was like the gold plates and a true account of what occurred. In this case, he was mistaken.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: The Book of Abraham is completely different. It was written by Abraham at one time. The Egyptians obviously would have no interest in preserving that account and would instead have written stories into the copies they made of their own invention and mythos. In this case, the papyri was this degenerate copy which "triggered" Joseph Smith to view the original written account and relate it. Again, Joseph Smith had no ability to translate and did not understand the nature of the papyri in front of him. He made the bad assumption it was like the gold plates and a true account of what occurred. In this case, he was mistaken.
Cfr.
Or is all of this clarifications on the revelations of Joseph Smith by Tobin?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
Tobin wrote: The Book of Abraham is completely different. It was written by Abraham at one time. The Egyptians obviously would have no interest in preserving that account and would instead have written stories into the copies they made of their own invention and mythos. In this case, the papyri was this degenerate copy which "triggered" Joseph Smith to view the original written account and relate it. Again, Joseph Smith had no ability to translate and did not understand the nature of the papyri in front of him. He made the bad assumption it was like the gold plates and a true account of what occurred. In this case, he was mistaken.
Cfr.
Or is all of this clarifications on the revelations of Joseph Smith by Tobin?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom