Cross, point, or angel on steeple?

[_gdemetz]

So, Drifting, are you assuming by that that they would not be given the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands after they were baptized? If you are it is a wrong assumption and not consistent at all with what the apostles were known to constantly do!

[_Drifting]

So, Drifting, are you assuming by that that they would not be given the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands after they were baptized? If you are it is a wrong assumption and not consistent at all with what the apostles were known to constantly do!

I'm not assuming anything (unlike you).
I'm reading what the scriptures say and taking them to mean what they say. I'm not adding bits in that aren't there to try and support my position - that's your style.

[_subgenius]

Interesting that Peter states you can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost just by being baptised...no laying of hands mentioned.

actually it is not interesting, because that is not what is being said. Even if you view "shall" as meaning "can" or "will be able", there is no implied "automatic" receipt of the gift of the HG.

and actually "laying hands" is mentioned...specifically in fact.

what you are purposely denying (as usual) is that Peter lays out the steps in verse 38, but not details...for example..he says baptised but does not say how baptism is performed, does he? - arguably he does not specifically mention water, so by the logic of your argument, with receiving the HG, water may is not necessary for Baptism according to Peter (for example in John 1 we see the specific phrase of "baptized by water" not baptized by gravy)- except with Peter the water is implied by the very term in this context and by sound reason....or do you think Peter supports the idea that Baptism can occur with gravy or sand or imagination?

There is no reason, logic, or sense in assuming that receiving the HG is automatic after the first 2 steps, they are not put forth as being the catalyst for the third. There is no cause and effect being stated or implied in that verse...or anywhere else.
This is further supported by Acts 8:16-17 when we see that that someone has not "received" the HG after their baptism - an obvious indication that it is not "automatic"...and the situation is remedied with the laying on the hands, a detail that is not intended to be superfluous in verse 17.

[_subgenius]

I'm reading what the scriptures say and taking them to mean what they say

i believe the first part...doubt the second

[_Drifting]

I'm reading what the scriptures say and taking them to mean what they say

i believe the first part...doubt the second

I'm going to lose sleep over your doubting of me...

Does the Bible mention being able to have the benefit of the Holy Spirit before baptism?

[_subgenius]

Does the Bible mention being able to have the benefit of the Holy Spirit before baptism?

nice to see you move on from your defeat on the laying of hands.
Yes, the scriptures speak of the "benefit"...though i am not sure they speak of the "gift"
even LDS teachings support the presence of the HG in people's lives prior to the "gift"
...perhaps you would know better?
I believe Acts is correcting the irregularities of christian baptisms which were occurring...but Acts 10:44-48 definitely proves that God, being truly free, may send the HG without any baptism at all.
So, yes it is possible, but to expect it as being the inevitable result of being baptized has already been disproved (above).
I believe the distinction between constant companion and occasional occurrence may be the point of distinction.

[_LittleNipper]

Acts 2 No laying on of hands here.....
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

2 And in the day of the Pentecost being fulfilled, they were all with one accord at the same place,

2 and there came suddenly out of the heaven a sound as of a bearing violent breath, and it filled all the house where they were sitting,

3 and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them,

4 and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,

6 and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,

7 and they were all amazed, and did wonder, saying one unto another, `Lo, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

8 and how do we hear, each in our proper dialect, in which we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those dwelling in Mesopotamia, in Judea also, and Cappadocia, Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia also, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya, that [are] along Cyrene, and the strangers of Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we did hear them speaking in our tongues the great things of God.'

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one unto another, `What would this wish to be?'

13 and others mocking said, -- `They are full of sweet wine;'

14 and Peter having stood up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and declared to them, `Men, Jews! and all those dwelling in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and harken to my sayings,

15 for these are not drunken, as ye take it up, for it is the third hour of the day.

16 `But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:

17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

18 and also upon My men-servants, and upon My maid-servants, in those days, I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy;

19 and I will give wonders in the heaven above, and signs upon the earth beneath -- blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke,

20 the sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the day of the Lord -- the great and illustrious;

21 and it shall be, every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.

22 `Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;

23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;

24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,

25 for David saith in regard to him: I foresaw the Lord always before me -- because He is on my right hand -- that I may not be moved;

26 because of this was my heart cheered, and my tongue was glad, and yet -- my flesh also shall rest on hope,

27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

28 Thou didst make known to me ways of life, Thou shalt fill me with joy with Thy countenance.

29 `Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;

30 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne,

31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;

33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;

34 for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,

35 till I make thy foes thy footstool;

36 assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him -- this Jesus whom ye did crucify.'

37 And having heard, they were pricked to the heart; they say also to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles, `What shall we do, men, brethren?'

38 and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

39 for to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.'

40 Also with many more other words he was testifying and exhorting, saying, `Be saved from this perverse generation;'

41 then those, indeed, who did gladly receive his word were baptized, and there were added on that day, as it were, three thousand souls,

42 and they were continuing stedfastly in the teaching of the apostles, and the fellowship, and the breaking of the bread, and the prayers.

43 And fear came on every soul, many wonders also and signs were being done through the apostles,

44 and all those believing were at the same place, and had all things common,

45 and the possessions and the goods they were selling, and were parting them to all, according as any one had need.

46 Daily also continuing with one accord in the temple, breaking also at every house bread, they were partaking of food in gladness and simplicity of heart,

47 praising God, and having favour with all the people, and the Lord was adding those being saved every day to the assembly.

[_gdemetz]

Nipper, there is a reason that the apostles laid their hands for the GIFT of the Holy Ghost, and even spiritually blind Simon was able to see that. It has been explained already here that there is a difference in a random manifestation of the Holy Ghost and the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Yes, the Holy Ghost can come and will come when it sees fit to attempt to influence someone. However, the GIFT of the Holy Ghost given by the laying on of hands entitles the saints to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost as long as they are worthy. The apostles weren't just wasting their time by doing this {born of the water, baptism; born of the spirit, the laying on of hands for the GIFT of the Holy Ghost}.

[_LittleNipper]

You may find this website informative:

http://www.thoughts-about-god.com/Bible ... edlife.htm

[_gdemetz]

Nipper, you are always giving me these cheap little Papa Joe Evangelical sites! I previously already gave here many references from many reputable non Mormon sources that clearly showed that the spiritual birth or regeneration was baptism (born of the water) and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (born of the Spirit)! Do you think the apostles were doing it just for fun? Don't you find it strange that the primitive church was doing that just as the restored church is doing it now?!