Fulfilled Prophecy?

[_Albion]

And you know this how? Because Smith said so? "Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and restores all things. BUT IT TELL YOU, ELIJAH HAS ALREADY COME, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was TALKING TO THEM ABOUT JOHN THE BAPTIST." NIV. Matt 17:11-13. You would argue with Jesus?

[_Tobin]

And you know this how? Because Smith said so? "Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and restores all things. BUT IT TELL YOU, ELIJAH HAS ALREADY COME, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that he was TALKING TO THEM ABOUT JOHN THE BAPTIST." NIV. Matt 17:11-13. You would argue with Jesus?

Albion - I admire your tenacity of trying to entreat gdemetz. I just get exhausted watching you try. But, I really don't think you are making any progress with gdemetz in any of the threads. I don't even know if that is possible?!?

[_Albion]

Well, as the scripture tells us, God's word does not come back void. I believe very much in God's prevenient grace and am happy to be a worker in that.

[_gdemetz]

Wrong again Albion, as usual! The scripture in Malachi states that Elijah would return before THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD (the second coming), and not BEFORE THE BIRTH OF THE MESSIAH! God is not trying to deceive us Albion, but you Evangelicals are. You're trying to twist the scriptures to fit those silly beliefs!

[_Drifting]

That is not a historical fact! You are absolutely wrong about that! I looked that up before I wrote that post! Yes, most of the Bible is meant to be taken literally. Do you think that God intended to confuse mankind, how ignorant. Writing on kingdoms that one is holding in his hands before other peoples eyes?!? What will it take for you to wake up and open your eyes?!?

When you say 'most of the Bible is meant to be taken literally.' Which bits aren't meant to be taken literally?

Bump, come on gdemetez - which parts of the Bible aren't meant to be taken literally?

[_Albion]

Isaiah 43: 10-11. "You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed --I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "that I am God."

Now here's a pretty definite statement voiced by God through Isaiah. There are so many things implied in this statement with regard to the nature of God. he firmly declares that there is no other God but him...there were none before him, there will be none after him. He also declares that he is God, not a god, and that he is also the savior. Though the Holy Spirit is not specifically mentioned here I think this does point to the triune nature of God. If, as Mormons say, the God of the Old Testament who speaks in Jesus, why does he claim not to know any other God such as the Father? Why is Jesus even a God here when he has not come to the earth to receive a body of flesh and bone so vital to the Mormon idea of progressions to godhood.

All that aside, a question for gdemetz... is this literal or figurative? No additional debate from me, gdemetz, I take it as written, but I am interested in your "interpretation".

[_Albion]

Aditional question, gdemetz...why is the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" referring to the second coming and bypassing the "first coming" which was a great and dreadful day for Israel which stood condemned because of their rejection of the Messiah. Only a short period later the Romans butchered Jews by the thousand, destroyed the temple (I saw some of the temple stones they threw down still there in a pile in Jerusalem, and took a "dreadful" revenge for Jewish revolt Directly alluding to Malachi's pronouncement, Jesus said it had been fulfilled. Are you saying he didn't know what he was talking about and couldn't get the sequence right?

[_just me]

So, about that patriarchal blessing. I've read the PB's of my ancestors. There are plenty of things that did not come to pass. I would need to see who Dame's patriarch was for that blessing, but it likely was the same one used for several of my peeps. (one of my ancestor's daughters was a plural wife of Dame)

by the way, I find the MMM portion of this thread disgusting and disturbing and just sad.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, you criticized me before and accused me wrongly of taking things out of context, but clerly you are doing it here. This passage is clearly used to differenciate Jesus Christ, or Jehovah (the only God of Israel) from the foreign false gods which were "formed." If you look at the next few verses, then that becomes very clear. "I, even I, am the Lord and besides me their is no Savior." This does not mean that there is no God the Father, or no other gods period. It simply means that there is no other god of Israel for the them to worship. As I stated before, even if you don't count God the Father ("the Most High God." as Daniel differenciates), the are "lords many and gods many" as Paul states. This was clearly understood by even the earlier Christians before the gospel became more and more polluted.

"We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods." Irenaeus

"and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the Savior." Clement of Alexandria

"... is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "THE GOD OF GODS, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth." Origen

"{By Psalm 82} it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods" and even of having power to become the sons of the Highest." Justin Martyr

"the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods." Athanasius {did not write the Athanasian Creed, only it was called after his name in an apparent attempt to gain credibility}

"if then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." Augustine

"the prophet is referring to those gods of whom it is written: "I said you are gods," and again, "god arises in the divine assembly," they who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice and are become perfect, are gods and the sons of the Most High." Jerome

Also Albion, you are definitely in the great minority if you misinterpret the great and dreadful, or terrible day of the Lord as Christ's birth, or to some other event in His ministry since the scriptures are repeatedly quite clear as to the being the second coming. It is referred to in numerous passages from the Bible, and here is just one example: "The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31 Obviously that has not happened yet!

[_Albion]

Well, as I said, gdemetz, I take Isaiah's words as they are given. Pretty clear in my view. As to Malachi's prophesy I think Jesus makes it clear that this was fulfilled in John the Baptist. Awfully difficult to argue with the Lord when he says flatly that, referring to Malachi's prophesy, it has happened. Since I have no other position to prop up by interpreting it any other way, I'll side with Jesus.