Why Do LDS Dismiss the Greater Part of the New Testament?

[_gdemetz]

There is no real reward without some sacrifice.

[_Albion]

gdemetz, since as I believe the Bible teaches there is only one heaven it isn't something I seek after nor do I expect. Please spare me and yourself time and effort by not quoting your "proof" texts on the subject. I know them and reject them as supporting Mormon claims otherwise.

[_Albion]

Jo, why do Mormons make any discussion personal...attacking those who disagree with them with insults and a presumption that somehow they don't quite measure up to the lofty level of "us Mormons"? You know nothing of the level of my spirituality as I live my Christian life...all you know is that I disagree with Mormon theology and am, therefore, not up to your level. I will contest what I perceive as the lies of Mormonism and will do it without making personal attacks.

[_Albion]

Jo, why do Mormons make any discussion personal...attacking those who disagree with them with insults and a presumption that somehow they don't quite measure up to the lofty level of "us Mormons"? You know nothing of the level of my spirituality as I live my Christian life...all you know is that I disagree with Mormon theology and am, therefore, not up to your level. I will contest what I perceive as the lies of Mormonism and will do it without making personal attacks.

[_Albion]

Tithing is a Biblical principle...handshakes are not.

[_jo1952]

Jo, why do Mormons make any discussion personal...attacking those who disagree with them with insults and a presumption that somehow they don't quite measure up to the lofty level of "us Mormons"? You know nothing of the level of my spirituality as I live my Christian life...all you know is that I disagree with Mormon theology and am, therefore, not up to your level. I will contest what I perceive as the lies of Mormonism and will do it without making personal attacks.

Hi Albion,

You have misunderstood my post. Here it is again with emphasis on key words and comments added:

Albion is not ready to understand things on a spiritual level. However, someday he will be ready. His journey has not yet taken him that far; regardless of which religion he is currently hanging his hat on [even if it were the LDS Church OR ANY other denomination]. The moment he opens his mind, the Holy Spirit will take advantage of that opening and will give him as much knowledge as he will be able to bear at that time.

Now, let's compare what I said to what Paul taught (which is what I was saying - just using different words):

1 Corinthians 3:1-8 (KJV) (again emphasis is mine...as well as my own added comments)

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [In other words, you are still hung up on which denomination you think is correct; thus, Paul is telling you that you are still carnal (of the world), so he cannot speak to you about the spiritual (nor will the Holy Spirit be able to witness the Truth of what he speaks; as it has been taught elsewhere in the New Testament that it is the Holy Spirit who will lead you to all Truth). Also, please make note that my comment is like Paul's, as I said it doesn't matter where you hang your hat as far as which church you attend. Thus, I am reiterating what Paul is teaching here.]

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. In other words, you can liken Paul and Apollos to represent various denominations. Arguing over whether the people thought their knowledge was superior because it was "Paul" who taught them, and it was through Paul's words they "believed"; or whether those who thought "Apollos" was the better teacher and thus their knowledge was superior because it was through Apollos' words they believed, is NOT WHAT IS IMPORTANT!

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: This particular use of the word "one" in Greek actually translates as "no one". Here Paul is emphasizing that Paul and Apollo's aren't the ones who are important - they are nothing - they are the messengers; but it is God who is the one brings the message into your spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit. It does not matter WHO or WHERE you hear the Truth; it will ALWAYS be ONLY the Holy Spirit who will witness and confirm to you that you have heard Truth spoken. and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. In other words, Paul is teaching that each individual person will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOUR. Hence, because the people did not understand this, it appears they have not been labouring. If they HAD been labouring, then Paul would have been able to teach them meat. And meat is how Paul is describing the spiritual aspect (and most important aspect) of the Gospel message and the doctrine which Paul knows each man needs to learn.

Do you think Paul was being arrogant in trying to teach the people this message? Was he putting the members down? Was he trying to tell them that he was superior to them? He is trying to get the people to understand that while they are still so very attached to the world that they even fight amongst themselves as to which messenger is better. The people appear to have been boastful about which messenger they preferred because the messenger they preferred was the messenger whose words had first brought them to accept and believe in Christ. They did not understand that it was NOT the work of the messenger; but rather, it was the work of God that had brought them to believe.

While any believer is still stuck at this "level of milk learning", they simply will not be able to "get" or understand, or have the ears to hear the meat/spiritual level of what the Holy Spirit is waiting to teach them.

This is the cause by which so many believers are not yet among the "few there be that find it".

Let's look at more of what Paul teaches. In fact, please note that the following is what Paul was teaching BEFORE he taught the above. Therefore, in keeping everything in proper context, it is apparent many of the people in Corinth either were NOT the same people who he talked to in Chapter 3; OR there was a mixture of those who did fit what he was describing in Chapter 2, as well as people in the same group whom Paul could still not teach anything spiritual to (meat) as he discusses in Chapter 3.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 (KJV)

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.(In other words, the deep things of God would be representative of the "meat")

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? (representing carnal man whose spirit has not yet started to awaken) even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (which is why our spirit needs to be born of the Spirit (see John 3:6))

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (Talking to those who have begun their spirit's awakening by the Spirit)

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. You must remember what Paul teaches in Chapter 3 where he testifies that "and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". This means that just because a messenger (this could be your own Minister or Pastor or Bishop, etc.) teaches you the Gospel message and the doctrine which the Apostles taught will not include you unless you labour to receive the Truth which the Spirit of God can teach you. In other words, what the Bible teaches or what man teaches cannot cause your spirit to be born again. You need to do your part in seeking the Truth which the Holy Spirit will teach to you personally. You MUST have Truth delivered to your spirit from the Holy Spirit; you cannot depend upon man's words because without the Spirit to give you knowledge and Truth, you cannot receive spiritual understanding. Just because you have been baptized or have "received" the Holy Ghost by the laying of hands, does NOT equate into having your spirit reborn. And Paul's words are proof of this because he was talking to baptized members of the church when he said that they were STILL NOT READY for meat (spiritual understanding).

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Even as a member of the church, you are still a "natural man" unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God. This is why you think I am speaking foolishness, and why you get offended when I say that you are not ready to understand spiritual things; even though this is exactly what Paul teaches to members who are not ready for spiritual teaching. I have stated are born of the Spirit in all churches, denominations, and religions. The advantage for me as a member of the LDS Church, is that she teaches her members to continually seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost. At some point the Light will turn on, and they will be able to discern the higher Truth which is available to them. That is when they will be able to receive the meat which the Holy Ghost is waiting to share with them. There are very few churches today who teach their members to seek confirmation from the Holy Ghost in order for each of them to know personally that what they are being taught by their Minister, or Pastor, or Bishop, is the Truth or not. The churches who teach you to believe in only what they are teaching you do so because they don't want to lose you as a member of their congregation. In fact, many denominations warn you against seeking the Holy Ghost by using scare tactics such as: "you will have no way of knowing if it is the Holy Ghost or a demon who is giving you knowledge or corrupted Truth or just plain falsehoods." Fortunately not everybody is listening to those warnings. They dare to think and seek outside of the box of their chosen religious institution.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. In other words, those who are awakening spiritually can see and know what is spiritual as opposed to being carnal, when they see it. They will be able to see when others are walking in the Spirit, as well. Likewise, they will also know when someone is not yet walking in the Spirit. AND IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH CHURCH A PERSON BELONGS TO IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND HAVE THEIR SPIRIT BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. Those who are awakening spiritually can share and instruct others (and Paul is one of the best examples in the Bible of someone who is spiritually awakening). Those who are completely born of the Spirit will be able to see the Kingdom of God. Notice that the Bible does not give the information on "where" or "when" in their lifetime, or even if it is only after physical death. When your spirit is reborn you will be able to see the Kingdom of God; regardless of the condition of your physical body; and also regardless of where you go to church.

Blessings,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Wrong again, Albion. Don't you get tired of this? The Bible does teach more than one heaven, it's false ministers that don't. Paul mentions the third heaven, and why would he do that if there were only oine?!?

[_Albion]

Only one reference from Paul who talks of being taken up into the third heaven while undergoing an out of body experience. And certainly not a very clear reference to their being degrees of heaven as Mormons claim. Now the other chapter that Mormons gleefully grab to support their belief is not even talking about heaven at all yet lo and behold, here is a claimed proof text for three heavens. Even in not understanding the passage Smith had to add the name of one of those heavens.

Gdemetz, I shall be gone on vacation for a week so you have plenty of time to read the chapter again removing your preconceived idea that it is talking about heaven.

[_Michael]

It is pointless trying to have a reasonable dialogue with gdemetz who seems to prefer insult, ridicule and none answers over conversation. I have just returned from a profound visit to Israel and there are so many thoughts whizzing around in my head that I just cannot deal with his abrasive dogmatism at this time.

I've been reading and lurking for a few months and quite enjoy the dialogue. I come to get different perspectives. My questions is this: Why are such personal attacks allowed in this forum? I call upon the forum moderators to immediately delete such attacks. If they persist, the perpetrator should be permanently banned from the board. Is this not already a rule? Sorry to derail the discussion.

[_ludwigm]

It is pointless trying to have a reasonable dialogue with gdemetz who seems to prefer insult, ridicule and none answers over conversation. I have just returned from a profound visit to Israel and there are so many thoughts whizzing around in my head that I just cannot deal with his abrasive dogmatism at this time.

I've been reading and lurking for a few months and quite enjoy the dialogue. I come to get different perspectives. My questions is this: Why are such personal attacks allowed in this forum? I call upon the forum moderators to immediately delete such attacks. If they persist, the perpetrator should be permanently banned from the board. Is this not already a rule? Sorry to derail the discussion.

The soft spot is the detection of the "attack".

Where is the treshold level? Calling somebody "stupid ass" is obviously personal attack.
What about:
- "Like almost every thing you state, [name], that is false also!"
- "Wrong again, [name]!"
These are redundant sentences, don't add anything to debate, are not arguments, are unnecessary - and should not moderated out, because they are not derailments, not attacks, not insults.


We should note that this is all the writer able to do.
See the "lowest 2.28%" range.

This board has 1000 members. The "lowest 2.28%" is 23 of us.