Understanding Revelation 13 by the Spirit

[_Mike Reed]

There is a lot of truth in what you say.

I am unaware of anything I've said here not being true.

But let me add that the organization / history of the RCC has shown it can and did fall far from the gospel of love.

I have little interest in sectarianism. I'll simply say that Roman Catholics would disagree with you, of course... and that one man's apostasy is another man's authoritative development. The LDS Church has changed a great deal since it's early existence. But that wasn't an apostasy, right? Those changes were authorized.;)

And at this point I don't have much in opposition to the church except condemning infants to hell.

Condemning them to hell? Oh brother. "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism." Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1992.

And of course their throwing out a bunch of scripture as uninspired.

Such as? What LDS Scripture has the Catholic Church thrown out? The Apocrypha? Nope... it's in their Bible. Do they reject the Song's of Solomon as Scripture, nope... that would be the LDS Church.

But their history shows me I should not trust the organization.

Such as the examples you give above? It doesn't seem that you know the Catholic Church very well. It also seems you are unwilling to see your own faith through the same lens through which you perceive the Catholic Church.

I do believe that as the restrainer leaves the earth the RCC will be back to its old tricks.

I have little interest in speculative doomsaying.

I suspect that many of its current members will be killed as in times gone by.

Oh of course. If you are doomsaying... you've gotta predict mass bloodshed. That's just par for the course. ;)

[_Franktalk]

I am unaware of anything I've said here not being true.

We all have that problem.

I have little interest in sectarianism. I'll simply say that Roman Catholics would disagree with you, of course... and that one man's apostasy is another man's authoritative development. The LDS Church has changed a great deal since it's early existence. But that wasn't an apostasy, right? Those changes were authorized.;)

I doubt if all changes to the LDS church came from God. But that is a separate subject. In my opinion the RCC has fallen from the original Gospel. You can believe whatever you like.

Condemning them to hell? Oh brother. "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism." Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1992.

Where I know God is merciful the RCC hopes He is. That may not be a big deal to you but it is to me.

Such as? What LDS Scripture has the Catholic Church thrown out? The Apocrypha? Nope... it's in their Bible. Do they reject the Song's of Solomon as Scripture, nope... that would be the LDS Church.

Actually I was referring to the Bible. Like Daniel where they say Daniel did not write it and it was not prophecy. Or the Apocalypse where they say John wrote it not as prophecy but to comfort the people of his day. Maybe you should read more about the subject you write about.

Such as the examples you give above? It doesn't seem that you know the Catholic Church very well. It also seems you are unwilling to see your own faith through the same lens through which you perceive the Catholic Church.

No organization of men can withstand the evil on the earth. So I rely on my personal relationship with God to guide me. I know that many things I think are true are probably not. But I seek understanding daily. The lens that I look through to see truth is the love of God. I also grew up Catholic, I was confirmed. I have studied a great deal of church history. I have read thousands of commentaries on the Bible. But my guide is the Holy Spirit which has allowed me to understand many things. And those many things I use in my studies. So indeed we can disagree on many things. I seem to disagree with most people. So be it.

[Guest]

Nonsense, Mike? Even the emperor Constantine stated that in his own history that that was the mark he was to follow, and when he gave power to the bishop of Rome, then they in turn used that mark! Anyway, let's hear your great wisdom, by all means! You break down the whole 13th chapter as I have done. Go for it!

[_ludwigm]

dishwater

staurogram, Chi Rho

I am sympathetic with You...

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

[_gdemetz]

Time for another cartoon, Ludwigm, you misquoted me.

[_Franktalk]

I am sympathetic with You...

It is human nature to always consider our self as the good seed and everyone else as the seed which did not bring forth good fruit. I can look back at all of the things I have said in the past and see where I was wrong. I know today I am wrong but am not aware of it. Next year I may know the errors I am blind to today. But such is life and such in progress. No one said this quest is easy. I can see why so many give up and sit on the sidelines. But I have been driven by a passion to know since birth. I hope to learn until I die in the flesh. But I know that death just brings more things to know. I embrace the path.

[_jo1952]

Such as? What LDS Scripture has the Catholic Church thrown out? The Apocrypha? Nope... it's in their Bible. Do they reject the Song's of Solomon as Scripture, nope... that would be the LDS Church.

Mike,

This is simply not true. The LDS Church did NOT throw ANY part of the Apocrypha out. God told Joseph Smith it was not needful that it be translated.

The Doctrine and Covenants
Section 91

Introduction:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, 9 March 1833 (see History of the Church, 1:331–32). The Prophet was at this time engaged in the translation of the Old Testament. Having come to that portion of the ancient writings called the Apocrypha, he inquired of the Lord and received this instruction.

Recap:

1–3, The Apocrypha is mostly translated correctly but contains many interpolations by the hands of men that are not true; 4–6, It benefits those enlightened by the Spirit.

The revelation: (emphasis is mine)

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

Blessings,

jo

[_gdemetz]

Good post Frank!

[_sheryl]

Shalom All!

I will offer that you are not incorrect in what you are sharing, gdemetz, there is just much more.

If one ventures into a study of Judaism, they will find that the sign of the cross (Tau) has held a significant place in their spiritual tradition.

Also one must remember that Jesus said that we are to pick up our cross daily and follow after him. If the cross is merely, as you have stated, an evil mark, then why does Jesus tell us to always have it with us?

There is much behind the sign of the cross to be found in Gnostic texts, that bring light into this matter (pun intended).

There are actually two crosses in Christianity, the cross of wood and the cross of Light. The cross of wood represents this world, our bestial self, and it is upon this cross, the cross of wood, that Jesus was crucified, and it is upon this cross, the cross of wood, our bestial self, that we must be crucified.

[Also you might take note that Catholicism began with a dream had by Constantine, where his army went to battle carrying a banner with a cross on it, and were victorious. He awakened from this dream taking action that would eventually lead to the rise of the Catholic Church, which represents the Dark Ages, or the Apostasy that Paul said we must go through before the Second Coming. And so our falling away was symbolically led by a cross, a cross of wood. Revelations that you and others have received are right on. But stopping here with our understanding of the cross keeps us in bondage.]

The cross of wood represents the bestial self, and yes the bestial self is what took over Christianity, driving true Christians underground. But we all have a cross of wood, a bestial self to overcome, and we are commanded by Jesus to pick it up daily and carry it. This is our burden, our fallen self.

But there is more.

Jesus said that his burden us Light. Jesus does not carry a cross of wood but a cross of Light! This is represented by the Hebrew letter Tau - the last letter of the Hebrew Aleph-Beit, representing completion - being made perfect. And so the cross that we carry daily will turn in our journey from wood to Light! Hallelu-Yah!

And so the mark of the beast and the mark of the Holy Spirit are both crosses! :) It is just that one is wood and the other is Light. Revelation is telling us that those who still carry the cross of wood, those who have not overcome their bestial self, are those that will perish. It has nothing do with statues of crosses, or crosses at altars or at churches, but which cross we bear on our brow, and we will bear one or the other!

I have many crosses in my house - representing the cross of wood, upon which I am being crucified, AND the Cross of Light, representing my ultimate completion in Christ!

Shalom!

Sheryl

[_gdemetz]

Yes Sheryl, those statements are true. Christ used that symbolism for the purpose of teaching us that if we want to become like Him, then we need to also bear our cross of sacrifice for the gospel. Of course, it is nothing by comparison to His cross, but still we have an obligation to bear the shame and sufferings of the world for the sake of the gospel.