Drifting, it may mean Silly Petulant Tobin.
Jo, Good job being patient and methodical. I’ve been a Mormon you know. I’m very familiar with the Bible and with the teachings of Jesus.
There are many layers of understanding in the Bible and in all Holy Canon. Likewise, there are many layers of understanding in the above.
I have found that those who claim that there are “many layers of understanding the Bible and the Holy Canon” are really trying to justify teachings that aren’t in the Bible (which is the Holy Canon to Christians). As for what I quoted above, feel free to elaborate on any of it and give your “alternate” “spiritual” explanation. But since you are not a Mormon “authority” and can’t speak for the church, I’ll go with the guys who claim they are and can.
Actually, here Joseph Smith wasn't teaching anything that had not already been taught in the Bible.
I’m sorry, where? The office of a Patriarch?
Jesus taught us that the Holy Spirit leads us to all Truth. The Holy Spirit does not only teach us through Prophets and Apostles. He also teaches us as individuals. The way He teaches us IS through revelation.
So? I’m aware of what Jesus said,
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” (John 16: NIV)
Notice that Jesus says that “and he will tell you what is yet to come”. Every Mormon I speak of says they have the Holy Spirit guiding them, but I haven’t heard of any Mormons that have revealed what is yet to come. (and those that have, like Parley P. Pratt below, and the Patriarchs cited above, are full of falsehoods) In fact, not one recent Mormon “authority” has said anything of what is to come, they have only repeated things that they have gotten from past “prophets”. And when those past “prophets” statements are analyzed and critiqued, most Mormons (like the discussion I just had above) say that it’s opinion. Jesus when speaking of the Spirit of truth, meant the Comforter (Advocate). Here is what he said about the Advocate:
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. (John 16: NIV)
Jesus had already spoken of the Advocate in John 14. He said:
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
Jesus plainly says you know the Father and have seen him (speaking of himself). He then says,
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” (John 14: NIV)
There is only one Advocate and that is Jesus. That is why he states explicitly that “you know him, for he lives with you”. They knew Jesus. He then says, “I will come to you”. The Greek word for comforter is “parakletos”. John uses this word 5 times in scripture. The 5th time it is used is 1 John 2:1. It is translated “Advocate”
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1)
The Bible is plain here. Christ is the “parakletos”. Mormons used to teach that Jesus was the Father in the flesh and the Holy “Ghost” was the “mind” of God. (Lectures on Faith V) These Lectures were bound in the Doctrine and Covenants and Joseph Smith wrote them and they were voted on as binding doctrine for the church. As Smith changed his definition of one God to many gods, they were summarily removed without any announcement at all decades later. In the preface that Smith put his name on, it states,
“There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it. The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places--its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the Bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political. We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body. We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man's labor be given him.”
The problem with Mormonism, is that it has never been consistent. This makes one doubt the veracity of those who proclaim themselves prophets and apostles of Jesus.
There are many Ministers, Pastors, Bishops, etc., who teach from their pulpits. It has been my experience that not many are teaching with the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, they are not teaching with revelation. They are teaching what they were taught when they went to school to become a Minister, a Pastor, a Bishop, etc.; and those teachings were of man. Unless they have received personal revelation about the Truth of what they are teaching, then they are not teaching with the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, without revelation a.k.a. the spirit of prophecy. They are only teaching, at most, in accordance with someone else's testimony, and there is no spirit of prophecy in them.
Are you speaking of Mormon “apostles” and “prophets” and “patriarchs”? If so, I heartily agree.
Jesus taught His Apostles not to worry about what they should say when spreading the Gospel message. He told them that the Holy Spirit would speak through them. Those who have received a personal witness from the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ can begin their journey of acquiring more and more Truth. This is how a testimony of Jesus grows. Anyone who has personally developed their testimony of Jesus through revealed Truth received by the Holy Spirit has the "spirit of prophecy", and is able to teach others. This does not guaranty that those who hear them teaching will be able to "hear".
And yet, one of the major objections I hear about such works as the Journal of Discourses is that they were given “off the cuff” so to speak. As a matter of fact, one of your “apostles”, makes your point perfectly clear. He said,
“Nothing to my mind can be greater sacrilege in the sight of the Almighty than to undertake to speak in His name without the inspiration of His spirit. We may talk upon the branches of human learning and knowledge, speaking after the manner of men with but little of this feeling of timidity, but not when we undertake to speak of the principles of life and salvation, of the plan of human redemption as it has always existed—as it existed before the foundations of the world were laid, as it will continue to exist until every child of God except the sons of perdition shall be brought back and exalted in a degree of glory far beyond the comprehension of the finite mind. It has sometimes been said that Mormonism, so called, is narrow, proscriptive and selfish; yet those who comprehend it, even in part, have never made such an assertion.
Can a church not even bearing the name of the Redeemer, and having neither Apostles nor Prophets, bear the fruits enjoyed by the disciples of our Lord in the days of and subsequent to His ministry? Do any of them ever claim to have such fruits? Who among them have the endowments of the Comforter, whose mission it was and is to bring the teachings of Jesus to the memory, show things to come and lead into all truth? God neither changes nor is he a respecter of persons; the causes, therefore, which lie ordained to produce certain results in one age will produce them in another.” (Moses Thatcher, JD:26:303-4, 10 [1885])
This makes it perfectly clear that Mormon “apostles” understood perfectly what they were doing, and the importance of their claims of prophetic inspiration when they spoke in public. As for “those who hear”, Marion G. Romney said,
“What we get out of general conference is a build-up of our spirits as we listen to those particular principles and practices of the gospel which the Lord inspires the present leadership of the Church to bring to our attention at the time. He knows why he inspired Brother Joseph F. Merrill to give the talk he just gave. He knows why he inspired the other brethren who have talked in this conference to say what they have said. It is our high privilege to hear, through these men, what the Lord would say if he were here. If we do not agree with what they say, it is because we are out of harmony with the Spirit of the Lord.” (Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1950, p.126)
Being able to “hear” doesn’t change what they said. You must “agree”, or it is YOU that is “out of harmony”. Common sense rules above all, but not in cults. Men like David Koresh make this perfectly clear. Is this the road you really want to go down?
Do not confuse the "spirit of prophecy", which is one of the gifts a person can receive from the Holy Spirit, with the "calling" of a Prophet. This is all in the New Testament, though many will not understand it because they do not have the eyes to see and comprehend the teaching.
I’m reminded of what just happened at a Mitt Romney fundraiser, where a rich “VIP” clued in the media about how some people just don’t understand:
“As protesters assembled on a beach in advance of Mitt Romney’s evening event at the home of conservative billionaire David Koch, the candidate slipped to East Hampton for his first of three fundraisers on this tony stretch of Long Island.
The line of Range Rovers, BMWs, Porsche roadsters and one gleaming cherry red Ferrari began queuing outside of Revlon Chairman Ronald Perelman’s estate off Montauk Highway long before Romney arrived, as campaign aides and staffers in white polo shirts emblazoned with the logo of Perelman’s property — the Creeks — checked off names under tight security.
…
A New York City donor a few cars back, who also would not give her name, said Romney needed to do a better job connecting. “I don’t think the common person is getting it,” she said from the passenger seat of a Range Rover stamped with East Hampton beach permits. “Nobody understands why Obama is hurting them.
“We’ve got the message,” she added. “But my college kid, the baby sitters, the nails ladies — everybody who’s got the right to vote — they don’t understand what’s going on. I just think if you’re lower income — one, you’re not as educated, two, they don’t understand how it works, they don’t understand how the systems work, they don’t understand the impact.”
We are actually given the means to understand the Bible from the Bible itself. Paul said,
2 And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. (1 Corinthians 2 NIV)
He then adds,
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. (ibid)
Paul plainly states that “we may understand”. So the question becomes, who has the Spirit or the truth? Paul again said,
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. (1 Thessalonians 2 NIV)
Those who believe. Those pastors you are so sure have no inspiration, BELIEVE. And they have something else, the Word of God to use as a guide. As Paul told Timothy,
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy NIV)
It is the Holy Scriptures (the Bible) and faith in Jesus that will make us wise for salvation, as Paul puts it. But we are also warned about Paul’s (or for that matter any teaching),
16 …His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. (2 Peter NIV)
Therefore, the risen Jesus told John,
2 These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate[/b]. 7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Revelation 2 NIV)
How do we test those that claim to be apostles? By the scriptures, as the Bereans did,
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed…(Acts 17 NIV)
I’m sure you have heard this all before. I reject Joseph Smith, and therefore his church, because his teachings do not line up with what the scriptures teach (the Bible). It doesn’t matter if it is “official” or “voted upon” it is what these men taught from the pulpit where as Moses Thatcher stated, they MUST have the inspiration of the Spirit, or just shut up. The problem is, those men were so arrogant in their "authority" that they couldn't just shut up, much to the embarrassment of the church.
A Patriarch does have the mantle of that special calling placed upon them when they are ordained. As such, they are endowed with the ability to indeed give blessings which "include an inspired declaration of lineage and such prophetic utterances as the Spirit dictates with reference to each person blessed". Here is something which can help everyone to understand what at first appears to be either a conflict, a falsehood, a strawman, an "off" day (and certainly I do not doubt that because man IS fallible, he can speak in error), if they are able to receive it. The explanation lies in multiple probations (reincarnations) of a spirit. Where a person, such as yourself, sees that a Patriarchal Blessing was unfulfilled, you are only looking at the current incarnation of that spirit in the physical body which it occupied when it received the Blessing. What you cannot see are any future incarnations at which time(s) any unfulfilled prophecies of the Patriarchal Blessing come to fruition.
That’s just tripe, and you know it. I was a Mormon for many years. I totally understand the plan of salvation and that men go to the spirit world. Those blessings don’t speak of that. They speak of being on the earth alive in their mortal bodies when these things are supposed to happen. Your “explanation” here is totally ridiculous. Again, explain Woodruff’s blessing which specifically states, “Thou shalt stand in the flesh & witness the winding up scene of this generation. Thou shalt remain on the earth to behold thy Savior Come in the Clouds of heaven.”
Woodruff is dead. He didn’t “remain on earth” to see the Second Coming. And we actually have the words of Woodruff about this very blessing. He said,
“Father Joseph Smith… gave me my patriarchal blessing in the temple of the Lord at Kirtland, on the 15th day of April, 1837. Many marvelous things which he sealed upon my head, for which I could then see NO EARTHLY CHANCE OF FULFILLMENT, have already been fulfilled to the very letter.”
“Many other sayings of the Patriarch Joseph Smith in my blessing have been fulfilled in my experience, but I have said sufficient on this subject. All the blessings that are sealed upon our heads will be fulfilled, and many more, if we are faithful and live for them.” (Leaves from my Journal, pages 94-95)
“No EARTHLY chance of fulfillment” means what it says. It doesn’t mean the “spirit world”, or after someone is resurrected. Only those who wish to explain away the ridiculous prophecies of uninspired patriarchs, have to bend over backwards to try and make them say something they don’t say.
Parley P. Pratt, (ordained a “prophet, seer & revelator”) also gave a prophecy that was blatantly false:
In his tract Mormonism Unveiled, he states,
“Now, by this rule, I reject Mahommet, first, because he had no testimony of his own; and secondly, because his doctrines agree not with the law and the testimony. I reject the French Prophets, for the same reason as to doctrine; and because their predictions were unscriptural, and did not come to pass. I reject Ann Lee, first, because God never sent a dispensation by a woman. Second, she forbid to marry. Third, she pretended Christ had come the second time according to promise, in her person. Fourth, she denied the resurrection of the body. Fifth, she laid aside all the ordinances of the Gospel. I reject Swedenborg, because he mystifies the scriptures and does away the ordinances of the gospel; and lastly, I reject Methodism, and other systems, because they do away the power and gifts of God, and change the ordinances of the gospel.” (Parley P. Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled, p.8 - p.9)
He then launches into a tirade against LaRoy Sunderland, about prophecy, and how Mormons can and do prophecy, and he gives one to prove it:
"Let christians blush at the ignorant and impotent objections of the editor of Zion's Watchman; [LaRoy Sunderland] for I am satisfied that even infidels never advance objections so foolish and unreasonable!
Concerning prophecy, he remarks that "it cannot be proved, that one prediction in that book, which is not taken from the Bible, was written before the event, said to be described." Again he says, "there are no predictions, peculiar to this book, yet to be fulfilled, no names of persons or places, or periods of time, are referred to, by which anything definite can be known, as to what is meant by the jargon of Mormon Prophets." Now, Mr. La Roy Sunderland, we will prove to the world that this in one of the most barefaced falsehoods ever uttered by man. The Book of Mormon contains many prophecies, yet future, with names, places, and dates, so definite, that a child may understand; indeed, it is one of the peculiar characteristics of the Book of Mormon, that its predictions are plain, simple, definite, literal, positive and very express, as to the time of their fulfilment. Notice a prediction of Nephi, page 125, second edition. "For after the book of which I have spoken, shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many, which shall believe the words which are written, and they shall carry them forth, unto the remnant of our seed, (the Indians) and then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us; how that we came on from Jerusalem; and that they are the descendants of the Jews; and the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be declared among them; wherefore they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers; and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers; and then shall they rejoice for they shall know, that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God. And their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people. And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ, shall also be a delightsome people; and it shall come to pass, that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth. * * * For the time speedily cometh, that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy, and he will spare his people."
Also page 121, 2d edition. "Behold that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof: for the kingdom of the devil must shake; and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance. or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger and perish; for behold at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good."
Also, page 122 2nd edition. "Woe unto all those who tremble and are angry, because of the truth of God; for behold he that is built upon the rock, receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth, lest he shall fall." Also. page 123 2nd edition. "Woe be unto the Gentiles, says the Lord God of Hosts; for notwithstanding I shall lengthen out my arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me." See also, page 514, and read the fate of our nation, and the fate of the Indians of America; in the day that the Gentiles should reject the fullness of the gospel.--(The Book of Mormon.) See also, page 526, where a sign is given, and the time clearly set for the restoration and gathering of Israel from their long dispersion, namely, the coming forth the Book of Mormon, should be the sign; and in the day this work should come forth, should this great event commence among all nations. Also, p. 527, where all who will not hearken to the Book of Mormon, shall be cut off from among the people; and that too, in the day it comes forth to the Gentiles and is rejected by them. And not only does this page set the time for the overthrow of our government and all other Gentile governments on the American continent, but the way and means of this utter destruction are clearly foretold; namely, the remnant of Jacob [The Lamanites or Native Americans] will go through among the Gentiles and tear them in pieces. like a lion among the flocks of sheep. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. This destruction includes an utter overthrow, and desolation of all our Cities, Forts, and Strong Folds--an entire annihilation of our race, except such as embrace the Covenant, and are numbered with Israel.
Now, Mr. Sunderland, you have something definite and tangible, the time, the manner, the means, the names, the dates; and I will state as a prophecy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false. And furthermore, as Mr. LaRoy Sunderland has lied concerning the truth of Heaven, the fulness of the Gospel; and has blasphemed against the word of God, except he speedily repent, and acknowledge his lying and wickedness, and obey the message of eternal truth, which God has sent for the salvation of his people. God will smite him dumb, that he can no longer speak great swelling words against the Lord; and a trembling shall seize his nerves, that he shall not be able to write; and Zion’s Watchman shall cease to be published abroad, and its lies shall no longer deceive the public; and he will wander a vagabond on the earth, until sudden destruction shall overtake him; and if Mr. La Roy Sunderland enquires, when shall these things be? I reply, it is nigh thee--even at thy doors; and I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
I hope Mr. Sunderland, will no more complain of the jargon of the Mormon Prophets being unintelligible or indefinite. (Parley P. Pratt, Mormonism Unveiled, p.14 - p.15)
I suppose that there is some alternative “explanation” for this one too. Also, everything he said would happen to Sunderland, never did. Pratt was a false prophet, but never was declared such by his own church. They still laud him as a great apostle, and if you go to LDS.org and type in his name and conference addresses, you get over 500 mentions of him: http://www.LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=parley+p+pratt
But he was a false prophet. Such is Mormonism.