Quasimodo wrote:Yawn! We have all read this. It was very dull the first time I read it. Please move on. Maybe you could skip to the last page and let us fill in the rest.
You've been exposed to the ringing of bells for too long...
I like that, Nipper! You have a sense of humor. You may be right. I sometimes wake up with a ringing in my ears.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Yes, Philo, you have another good point. The anti's really do not wish to change their lifestyles. They would really like this all just to go away (I don't know what many of them think will happen to them after they die, maybe nothing), but it won't so the nest best thing for them is to try to discredit it. Many of them put in a surprising amount of time to try to do just that instead of just using that time to enjoy their short while on this earth.
Genesis 18:1-33 Abraham was seated and looking out from his tent one hot afternoon, and looking out his saw 3 men among the oak grove of Mamre. Abraham ran out to meet them and bowed low. Abraham offers the three men refreshment and to bathe their feet as they sit in the shade. Abraham runs back to Sarah & telles her to make some fresh bread --- they have guests. Abraham kills a calf and makes some veal. This obviously took alittle time... They ask after Sarah and that she should just be beginning her pregnancy. Sarah is close by behind them standing by the tent flap. Sarah laughs when she hears this as she doesn't even have a menstrual cycle anymore. God asks why did Sarah laughed since THERE'S NOTHING TOO STUPENDOUS FOR GOD. Sarah is frightened and denies laughing but God understands her heart. The men rise and walk toward Sodom. God knows Abraham's heart & the future concerning him. Christ (a pre-incarnate visitation or Christophany) stays to tell Abraham what is about to happen to the cities of the plain. The other two men continue on towards Sodom. Christ says that what is happening in those cities is horrible. Abraham knows that Lot resides there and begins a friendly banter with Christ. Abraham starts with but 50 righteous people in the cities. Christ says that the cities would be spared for 50 righteous' sake. Abraham goes from 50 to 40 to 20 to 10. Each time Christ says He will spare the cities --- even for the sake of 10 righteous people. Abraham is perhaps satisfied that he saved cities, and they part. (Note: one might conclude that when God cause the Flood, He might have spared the world for the sake of 10 --- Noah and his family only amounted to 8, this should give us some insight to just how bad the earth had become in bearly 2000 years from the Fall to the Flood.) Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Jehovah appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day;
2 and he lifteth up his eyes and looketh, and lo, three men standing by him, and he seeth, and runneth to meet them from the opening of the tent, and boweth himself towards the earth,
3 And he saith, `My Lord, if, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, do not, I pray thee, pass on from thy servant;
4 let, I pray thee, a little water be accepted, and wash your feet, and recline under the tree;
5 and I bring a piece of bread, and support ye your heart; afterwards pass on, for therefore have ye passed over unto your servant;' and they say, `So mayest thou do as thou has spoken.'
6 And Abraham hasteth towards the tent, unto Sarah, and saith, `Hasten three measures of flour-meal, knead, and make cakes;'
7 and Abraham ran unto the herd, and taketh a son of the herd, tender and good, and giveth unto the young man, and he hasteth to prepare it;
8 and he taketh butter and milk, and the son of the herd which he hath prepared, and setteth before them; and he is standing by them under the tree, and they do eat.
9 And they say unto him, `Where [is] Sarah thy wife?' and he saith, `Lo -- in the tent;'
10 and he saith, `returning I return unto thee, about the time of life, and lo, to Sarah thy wife a son.'
11 And Sarah is hearkening at the opening of the tent, which is behind him;
12 and Abraham and Sarah [are] aged, entering into days -- the way of women hath ceased to be to Sarah;
13 and Sarah laugheth in her heart, saying, `After I have waxed old I have had pleasure! -- my lord also [is] old!'
14 And Jehovah saith unto Abraham, `Why [is] this? Sarah hath laughed, saying, Is it true really -- I bear -- and I am aged? Is any thing too wonderful for Jehovah? at the appointed time I return unto thee, about the time of life, and Sarah hath a son.'
15 And Sarah denieth, saying, `I did not laugh;' for she hath been afraid; and He saith, `Nay, but thou didst laugh.'
16 And the men rise from thence, and look on the face of Sodom, and Abraham is going with them to send them away;
17 and Jehovah said, `Am I concealing from Abraham that which I am doing,
18 and Abraham certainly becometh a nation great and mighty, and blessed in him have been all nations of the earth?
19 for I have known him, that he commandeth his children, and his house after him (and they have kept the way of Jehovah), to do righteousness and judgment, that Jehovah may bring on Abraham that which He hath spoken concerning him.'
20 And Jehovah saith, `The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah -- because great; and their sin -- because exceeding grievous:
21 I go down now, and see whether according to its cry which is coming unto Me they have done completely -- and if not -- I know;'
22 and the men turn from thence, and go towards Sodom; and Abraham is yet standing before Jehovah.
23 And Abraham draweth nigh and saith, `Dost Thou also consume righteous with wicked?
24 peradventure there are fifty righteous in the midst of the city; dost Thou also consume, and not bear with the place for the sake of the fifty -- the righteous who [are] in its midst?
25 Far be it from Thee to do according to this thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked; that it hath been -- as the righteous so the wicked -- far be it from Thee; doth the Judge of all the earth not do justice?'
26 And Jehovah saith, `If I find in Sodom fifty righteous in the midst of the city, then have I borne with all the place for their sake.'
27 And Abraham answereth and saith, `Lo, I pray thee, I have willed to speak unto the Lord, and I -- dust and ashes;
28 peradventure there are lacking five of the fifty righteous -- dost Thou destroy for five the whole of the city?' and He saith, `I destroy [it] not, if I find there forty and five.'
29 And he addeth again to speak unto Him and saith, `Peradventure there are found there forty?' and He saith, `I do [it] not, because of the forty.'
30 And he saith, `Let it not be, I Pray thee, displeasing to the Lord, and I speak: peradventure there are found there thirty?' and He saith, `I do [it] not, if I find there thirty.'
31 And he saith, `Lo, I pray thee, I have willed to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there are found there twenty?' and He saith, `I do not destroy [it], because of the twenty.'
32 And he saith, `Let it not be, I pray Thee, displeasing to the Lord, and I speak only this time: peradventure there are found there ten?' and He saith, `I do not destroy [it], because of the ten.'
33 And Jehovah goeth on, when He hath finished speaking unto Abraham, and Abraham hath turned back to his place.
Genesis 19:1-26 This is a very tragic story. The two messengers (angels) who were with Christ and Abraham get to the city of Sodom in the early evening. Lot is sitting in the gate and meets them. Lot insists that the pair come into his house for the night and to leave early (assuming before the city awakes). At Lot's house, before bedtime, all the men of Sodom (both young and old) surrounded the house. All the men yell out to Lot to bring out the men visitors so that they can engage in sex with them. Lot knows these men are from God and goes outside closing the door behind him and tell's the men not to do evil. Lot in desperation offers his two virgin daughters for the men to do with as they please. The men accuse Lot of being judgmental and say that they will now do worse to Lot. All the men of Sodom begin to crush Lot and try to break the door down. The two angels put out their hand, pulling Lot into the house and give blindness to the men (both young & old) at the door --- so that they tired themselves trying to find a way to get in (It appears that these Sodomites were so obsessed with homosexuality, that they wanted sex more then they cared that they were blind).
The two angels tell Lot to bring his entire family out of the city for God is allowing the angels to destroy it. Lot is told to get his wife, 2 sons-in-law, and 2 daughters and leave the city. Lot goes to get his sons-in-law to tell them to leave the city. Both the men think Lot is a fool and refuse (Their wives are still virgins and so they may have said other things as well, why they wanted to remain). Lot is grabbed and forced out of the Sodom by the angels and told to take his wife & 2 daughters and run to the mountains and not look back. Lot pleads for the little city of Zoar (close by) to be allowed to survive unharmed -- Lot doesn't think he can make it to the mountains in time. The Lord intervines and tells Lot that He will spare Zoar, to go for He will do nothing until Lot is safe. The other cities are not destroyed until Lot reaches Zoar at late evening. But Lot's wife dawdled and looked back and became encased as a pillar of salt. Brimstone rained down from the sky and destroyed all living things and consumed the cities except Zoar (a Little one) originally called Bela ---- for the sake of Lot. Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And two of the messengers come towards Sodom at even, and Lot is sitting at the gate of Sodom, and Lot seeth, and riseth to meet them, and boweth himself -- face to the earth,
2 and he saith, `Lo, I pray you, my lords, turn aside, I pray you, unto the house of your servant, and lodge, and wash your feet -- then ye have risen early and gone on your way;' and they say, `Nay, but in the broad place we do lodge.'
3 And he presseth on them greatly, and they turn aside unto him, and come in unto his house; and he maketh for them a banquet, and hath baked unleavened things; and they do eat.
4 Before they lie down, the men of the city -- men of Sodom -- have come round about against the house, from young even unto aged, all the people from the extremity;
5 and they call unto Lot and say to him, `Where [are] the men who have come in unto thee to-night? bring them out unto us, and we know them.'
6 And Lot goeth out unto them, to the opening, and the door hath shut behind him,
7 and saith, `Do not, I pray you, my brethren, do evil;
8 lo, I pray you, I have two daughters, who have not known any one; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do to them as [is] good in your eyes; only to these men do not anything, for therefore have they come in within the shadow of my roof.'
9 And they say, `Come nigh hither;' they say also, `This one hath come in to sojourn, and he certainly judgeth! now, we do evil to thee more than [to] them;' and they press against the man, against Lot greatly, and come nigh to break the door.
10 And the men put forth their hand, and bring in Lot unto them, into the house, and have shut the door;
11 and the men who [are] at the opening of the house they have smitten with blindness, from small even unto great, and they weary themselves to find the opening.
12 And the men say unto Lot, `Whom hast thou here still? son-in-law, thy sons also, and thy daughters, and all whom thou hast in the city, bring out from this place;
13 for we are destroying this place, for their cry hath been great [before] the face of Jehovah, and Jehovah doth send us to destroy it.'
14 And Lot goeth out, and speaketh unto his sons-in-law, those taking his daughters, and saith, `Rise, go out from this place, for Jehovah is destroying the city;' and he is as [one] mocking in the eyes of his sons-in-law.
15 And when the dawn hath ascended, then the messengers press upon Lot, saying, `Rise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters who are found present, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.'
16 And he lingereth, and the men lay hold on his hand, and on the hand of his wife, and on the hand of his two daughters, through the mercy of Jehovah unto him, and they bring him out, and cause him to rest without the city.
17 And it cometh to pass when he hath brought them out without, that he saith, `Escape for thy life; look not expectingly behind thee, nor stand thou in all the circuit; to the mountain escape, lest thou be consumed.'
18 And Lot saith unto them, `Not [so], I pray thee, my lord;
19 lo, I pray thee, thy servant hath found grace in thine eyes, and thou dost make great thy kindness which thou hast done with me by saving my life, and I am unable to escape to the mountain, lest the evil cleave [to] me, and I have died;
20 lo, I pray thee, this city [is] near to flee thither, and it [is] little; let me escape, I pray thee, thither, (is it not little?) and my soul doth live.'
21 And he saith unto him, `Lo, I have accepted thy face also for this thing, without overthrowing the city [for] which thou hast spoken;
22 haste, escape thither, for I am not able to do anything till thine entering thither;' therefore hath he calleth the name of the city Zoar.
23 The sun hath gone out on the earth, and Lot hath entered into Zoar,
24 and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
25 and He overthroweth these cities, and all the circuit, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which is shooting up from the ground.
26 And his wife looketh expectingly from behind him, and she is -- a pillar of salt!
Genesis 19:27-38 Abraham gets up early the next morning and witnesses that everything is gone except for smoke. Abraham must have wondered concerning Lot. But the Lord looked out for Lot and allowed him to go to Zoar (the only city of the plain allowed to remain). But Lot was scared and fled to the mountains with his daughters and found a cave to live in.The daughters imagined that all men except for Lot have been annihiliated. Perhaps all the men of Zoar had a night on the town in Sodom and Gomorrah or perhaps they thought Zoar was next on the hit list after they fled. In any case, the daughters get their father drunk on two different nights and each had sex with him (the eldest 1st). So it would seem that living in Sodom had taken its toll on the character/thinking process of the daughters. Both later conceived and the eldest gave birth to Moab and the younger to Ben-Ammi.
27 And Abraham riseth early in the morning, unto the place where he hath stood [before] the face of Jehovah;
28 and he looketh on the face of Sodom and Gomorrah, and on all the face of the land of the circuit, and seeth, and lo, the smoke of the land went up as smoke of the furnace.
29 And it cometh to pass, in God's destroying the cities of the circuit, that God remembereth Abraham, and sendeth Lot out of the midst of the overthrow in the overthrowing of the cities in which Lot dwelt.
30 And Lot goeth up out of Zoar, and dwelleth in the mountain, and his two daughters with him, for he hath been afraid of dwelling in Zoar, and he dwelleth in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the first-born saith unto the younger, `Our father [is] old, and a man there is not in the earth to come in unto us, as [is] the way of all the earth;
32 come, we cause our father to drink wine, and lie with him, and preserve from our father -- a seed.'
33 And they cause their father to drink wine on that night; and the first-born goeth in, and lieth with her father, and he hath not known in her lying down, or in her rising up.
34 And it cometh to pass, on the morrow, that the first-born saith unto the younger, `Lo, I have lain yesterday-night with my father: we cause him to drink wine also to-night, and go thou in, lie with him, and we preserve from our father -- a seed.'
35 And they cause their father to drink wine on that night also, and the younger riseth and lieth with him, and he hath not known in her lying down, or in her rising up.
36 And the two daughters of Lot conceive from their father,
37 and the first-born beareth a son, and calleth his name Moab; he [is] father of Moab unto this day;
38 as to the younger, she also hath born a son, and calleth his name Ben-Ammi: he [is] father of the Beni-Ammon unto this day.
gdemetz wrote:Nipper, can you try more "dazzeling" next time?
The Bible is what the Bible is.
Nipper, is the Bible meant to be taken literally or metaphorically?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
LittleNipper wrote: The Bible is what the Bible is.
Nipper, is the Bible meant to be taken literally or metaphorically?
Genesis is a book of history. When such words as "like" or "as" are used, what follows is descriptive or metaphorical in nature. Where the Bible clearly states this happened, than that happen, and so on ---- that is literal. Traditionally (back past the time of Jesus) that is how God's Word is understood. That is how I believe it to be.
