Albion wrote:I suppose Jack the Ripper had "reasons and motives". I just flat out reject them as any kind of mitigating circumstance. It was an evil premeditated act committed by calculating people without compassion or cause. That they knew their actions were despicable is supported by their subsequent cover up and lies that allowed one man to carry the can for all of them. They were no different from the 9/ll terrorists and the Oklahoma City bombers.
I'm glad we agree. To be able to understand the reasons someone does something does not mean you have to agree with them or find them acceptable. And we are back to where I started from. I understand why the MMM happened (as does why me). That doesn't mean I find the reasons for it acceptable.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Albion wrote:On what grounds is the slaughter of innocents "understandable" then....especially by those claiming to be christians? Under what circumstances is it acceptable to induce those fearful for their lives to surrender under a promise of safety and then to murder all those over the age of five or so with guns and clubs..to strip the bodies and leave them to the elements while stealing all their possessions...and then to lie about it by accusing local Indians of the crime?
Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.
Does your understanding the motivations behind those involved in the crusades make you want to join the catholic church? Or does it lead you to the conclusion that they were very misguided individuals, misguided by the catholic church and their zeal to further its cause?
Tobin wrote:Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.
Does your understanding the motivations behind those involved in the crusades make you want to join the catholic church? Or does it lead you to the conclusion that they were very misguided individuals, misguided by the catholic church and their zeal to further its cause?
Honestly, no. And I couldn't recommend the LDS Church on the basis of how the Mormons behaved either. In fact, I couldn't recommend any church on how people behave that belong to them. You'll find lots of bad actors in any organization. Instead one should seek God and do as God says.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
why me, on 17 July 2012 - 07:48 AM, said: Of course, MMM is a little off the topic. But on the other hand, members do leave the church over it because they read critic interpretations and become disappointed with that part of LDS history. This may not be the only reason, but it can be one reason. The point is that when we look at church history in context, it helps with our understanding about what was going on during that time in church history.
Whyme, what context makes the MMM acceptable?
I think Whyme was just explaining the problem LDS people face when learning about this tragedy, rather than defending the indefensible.
I note that Why Me appears to be in hiding and subgenius is refusing to answer the OP *sigh*
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
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Tobin wrote:Well, I can't help you Albion. Probably you should try to understand the motivations behind why people do certain things, take the crusades for example. That doesn't seem to be a very Christian way to behave, but I'm sure they had their reasons.
Does your understanding the motivations behind those involved in the crusades make you want to join the catholic church? Or does it lead you to the conclusion that they were very misguided individuals, misguided by the catholic church and their zeal to further its cause?
Tobin wrote:Honestly, no. And I couldn't recommend the LDS Church on the basis of how the Mormons behaved either. In fact, I couldn't recommend any church on how people behave that belong to them. You'll find lots of bad actors in any organization. Instead one should seek God and do as God says.
So why an organization instead of God just telling you directly what he wants you to do, and you doing it?
sock puppet wrote:So why an organization instead of God just telling you directly what he wants you to do, and you doing it?
I simply view the Church as an association of "generally" like-minded individuals where I can discuss things and, provided they are willing, do some good in common cause with. And I'm very much about going with what God directly inspires me to reasonably believe is true. I think I've made that clear in multiple posts.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Albion wrote:But we're not talking about the crusades we're talking about something that you suggested could be "understandable".
The LDS people that crossed the plains had already endured the slaughter that occurred at Winter Quarters. There was an intense fear of the mobs who murdered Joseph Smith continuing to pursue them.
I believe that the order for the attack of MMM was done out of that fear. However, there is absolutely NO excuse for what actually occurred. Once it was obvious that the folks in that party were merely families, and had no interest in hurting anyone, they should have been simply let on their way.
What did happen was truly sickening, and there is no defense for it.
Drifting wrote:I note that Why Me appears to be in hiding and subgenius is refusing to answer the OP *sigh*
The OP is not really asking a question, it is not even a good attempt at a loaded question. However, as for the context that makes the MMM acceptable? i would say that the context of the MMM makes it acceptable.
(Drifting - insert bias opinion, gossip, suppositions, and theory-passed-for-fact about MMM in space below)
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