whyme, please make MMM acceptable w/context

[_Albion]

What utter claptrap. MMM was years after anything that happened to Mormons in Illinois or in their flight from that place and even with talk of Federal troops being sent to quell a falsely rumored Utah war it is pretty pathetic to use a presumed fear as an excuse. What on earth threat could these pioneers passing through Utah Territory have posed to Mormons firmly entrenched on their ranches and farms and in towns adjacent to their route? The location of the MM site, even by car today, is an out of the way place and the trail through it was taking the wagon train in a south westerly direction away from Mormon enclaves such as St. George, even more so from Cedar City and Parawan where most of the murderers were from. The fact that locals got the travelers to surrender under a false promise of safety and then slaughtered them in cold blood on a prearranged signal removes even the suggestion that the Mormons had cause to be fearful. If fear was their motive they could have escorted them under guard out of Mormon country and on their way through present day Nevada. In and of itself, the MMM proves nothing for or against Mormonism as a belief system but I reject any pathetic attempt to justify it in any way. It was a barbaric, murderous slaughter and robbery of innocents that properly places a very dark stain on Utah history.

[_why me]

I don't think he is saying is or ever would be acceptable, just understandable.

And I made that clear on the thread. Historical issues need to be seen in context and at times the way people behave can be understandable when we consider what was occurring at that moment in history and what happened in the past before the event occurred.

[_why me]

But we're not talking about the crusades we're talking about something that you suggested could be "understandable".

We need to use our sociological imagination to see why people behave or behaved the way they do. For example, when we consider the persecution that the utah saints previously experienced and the threats that the utah saints were still experiencing, we may understand that a small group of Mormons felt threatened by the fancher party. Of course there was no threat. But...psychologically, there can be an explanation of mistrust, fear, anguish etc.

After so much suffering in the past, and the suffering that the saints experienced on their journey westward, well, some may not have been the most psychologically fit.

[_why me]

Agreed. The MMM was not even on my list of reasons why I left the church. Just like the stone in a hat. There are so many other reasons to leave.

Maybe not for you. But it is one of the tools that critics use to get members to doubt their faith. Both are dealt with by critics to cause doubt.

[_why me]

I note that Why Me appears to be in hiding and subgenius is refusing to answer the OP *sigh*

I have been on the other board a lot lately. I did not see the request in the terrestial forum until now.

Actions have intended and unintended consequences. It is good that before we act we can see the unintended consequences of the action itself. But..this takes reflection.

The persecution that the saints experienced in Missouri and in Nauvoo could have led to MMM. Likewise, the continued threats that they were experiencing while in utah. I believe that some members were suffering from being 'shell shocked'.

[_why me]

What utter claptrap. MMM was years after anything that happened to Mormons in Illinois or in their flight from that place and even with talk of Federal troops being sent to quell a falsely rumored Utah war it is pretty pathetic to use a presumed fear as an excuse.

But this was not all. The outside press was still stirring up people against the Mormons. It was quite relentless. And the saints knew that the threats were continuing. And if I am not mistaken, some people in california were threatening to come to utah to finish the business started in nauvoo. Shell shock for sure. If the Mormons could have been left in peace, well, that would have done much for their mindset.

[_son of Ishmael]

I don't think he is saying is or ever would be acceptable, just understandable.

And I made that clear on the thread. Historical issues need to be seen in context and at times the way people behave can be understandable when we consider what was occurring at that moment in history and what happened in the past before the event occurred.

I guess you would say the same thing for Han's Mill?

[_why me]

I guess you would say the same thing for Han's Mill?

Maybe not. But certainly intolerance contributed to the massacre. Lets put it this way: both sides were suspicious of the other. Haun's Mill was the final escalation of the intolerance that the outsiders felt toward the Mormons, especially as more Mormons were coming into the area.

http://www.farwesthistory.com/haunbro.asp

[_Drifting]

I guess you would say the same thing for Han's Mill?

Maybe not. But certainly intolerance contributed to the massacre. Lets put it this way: both sides were suspicious of the other. Haun's Mill was the final escalation of the intolerance that the outsiders felt toward the Mormons, especially as more Mormons were coming into the area.

http://www.farwesthistory.com/haunbro.asp

So Mormons today who claim they are being persecuted are simply guilty of not understanding it within the understandable context of the times we are currently living in?

[_Drifting]

1838 saw an escalation in tensions between the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and their neighbors in northwestern Missouri. Ray County was located immediately south of the Mormon Caldwell County. The two counties were separated by a no man's land 24 miles long and 6 miles wide, known as "Bunkham's Strip" or "Buncombe Strip." This unincorporated strip was attached to Ray County for administrative and military purposes. The citizens of Ray County and their neighbors to the west in Clay County, first began to have concerns about the Mormons to the north when a group of "dissenters" from the church was expelled from Caldwell County. These dissenters, including David Whitmer, William Wines Phelps, John Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery had been the leaders of the Latter Day Saint church in Missouri. They relocated their families to Richmond and Liberty, the county seats of Ray and Clay, respectively, and claimed that their lives had been threatened and their property had been stolen by the Mormons.[1]

Conflicts between the Mormons and non-Mormons in Carroll County and Daviess County throughout the summer put settlers in the more settled counties of Ray and Clay increasingly on edge. This unease reached a bursting point when Thomas B. Marsh and Orson Hyde of the Mormon Quorum of the Twelve Apostles arrived in Richmond and reported that the Mormons had invaded Daviess County and sacked the county seat of Gallatin. They also charged that a Mormon group known as the Danites planned to burn Richmond and Liberty to the ground. This testimony sent the worried citizens into a near frenzy. Women, children and property were ferried across the Missouri River for protection against an imminent Mormon invasion, and the state militia was put on alert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crooked_River