Bible verse by verse

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

Albion, there are many documented OBE cases.

Also, here are just a few PHD's from BYU's religious studies mentioned in one article:

"The New Testament at Brigham Young University - The faculty"

Cite?

[_Albion]

Since NDEs and OBes are unproven as to whether they are real experiences or purely aspects of the brain working in ways we do not understand, they are speculation and the stuff of all kinds of fantasy...somethjing best left to the tabloida.

[_LittleNipper]

Genesis 32:1-32 Jacob is on his way home and God’s angels meet him. Jacob calls the location "God’s camp,” the name Mahanaim. Jacob sends men to his brother Esau in Seir, the country of Edom. He tells them, to say that he has been with Laban --- there until now. He brings cattle and donkeys and flocks and men and women servants. And hopes to find favor in Esau's eyes. These men returned to Jacob and say, that Esau is coming to meet him with four hundred men. Jacob is very worried. He divides the people, the flocks, cattle, etc., into two groups. Jacob believes if Esau attacks one group and wiped it out , the other may get away. Jacob then beseeches God, and says that it was God who wanted him to return to the land of his father Isaac. He is earnest and humble and asks God to save him from Esau's wrath -- who may kill everyone and not leave a generation to grow as God promised... Jacob selects gifts for his brother: Two hundred female goats, twenty male goats, two hundred female sheep, twenty rams, thirty milk camels with young, forty cows, ten bulls, twenty female donkeys and ten male donkeys. These are to be delivered to Esau one kind at a time separately. The servants are given strict instruction to say that these belong to Jacob and are a gift to lord Esau. And he is coming next. Jacob feels that in so doing he may buy his brother's favor. Jacob cannot sleep. Jacob has his family cross the Jabbok River (two wives, the two women servants, and his eleven children). Then Jacob is alone. He comes upon a man and begins to wrestle with him. Morning is coming and the man is not being allowed to get away. So this man touches the joint of Jacob’s thigh, which is put out of joint while jacob holds him. The man says to be let loose. But Jacob says he will not let him go without a blessing. The man asks Jacob his name and then changes it to Israel because Jacob/Israel is a prince with God and with men has strived to the end. Jacob then asks him his name. But the man asks why, and then blesses Israel. Jacob calls the place Peniel. For he said, that he has seen God face to face, and survived. The sun rises as Israel passed through Peniel. His leg hurts. So to this day the sons of Israel do not eat the meat from inside the joint of the thigh, because God touched this part of the joint on Jacob’s leg.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Jacob hath gone on his way, and messengers of God come upon him;

2 and Jacob saith, when he hath seen them, `This [is] the camp of God;' and he calleth the name of that place `Two Camps.'

3 And Jacob sendeth messengers before him unto Esau his brother, towards the land of Seir, the field of Edom,

4 and commandeth them, saying, `Thus do ye say to my lord, to Esau: Thus said thy servant Jacob, With Laban I have sojourned, and I tarry until now;

5 and I have ox, and ass, flock, and man-servant, and maid-servant, and I send to declare to my lord, to find grace in his eyes.'

6 And the messengers turn back unto Jacob, saying, `We came in unto thy brother, unto Esau, and he also is coming to meet thee, and four hundred men with him;'

7 and Jacob feareth exceedingly, and is distressed, and he divideth the people who [are] with him, and the flock, and the herd, and the camels, into two camps,

8 and saith, `If Esau come in unto the one camp, and have smitten it -- then the camp which is left hath been for an escape.'

9 And Jacob saith, `God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, Jehovah who saith unto me, Turn back to thy land, and to thy kindred, and I do good with thee:

10 I have been unworthy of all the kind acts, and of all the truth which Thou hast done with thy servant -- for, with my staff I passed over this Jordan, and now I have become two camps.

11 `Deliver me, I pray Thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I am fearing him, less he come and have smitten me -- mother beside sons;

12 and Thou -- Thou hast said, I certainly do good with thee, and have set thy seed as the sand of the sea, which is not numbered because of the multitude.'

13 And he lodgeth there during that night, and taketh from that which is coming into his hand, a present for Esau his brother:

14 she-goats two hundred, and he-goats twenty, ewes two hundred, and rams twenty,

15 suckling camels and their young ones thirty, cows forty, and bullocks ten, she-asses twenty, and foals ten;

16 and he giveth into the hand of his servants, every drove by itself, and saith unto his servants, `Pass over before me, and a space ye do put between drove and drove.'

17 And he commandeth the first, saying, `When Esau my brother meeteth thee, and hath asked thee, saying, Whose [art] thou? and whither goest thou? and whose [are] these before thee?

18 then thou hast said, Thy servant Jacob's: it [is] a present sent to my lord, to Esau; and lo, he also [is] behind us.'

19 And he commandeth also the second, also the third, also all who are going after the droves, saying, `According to this manner do ye speak unto Esau in your finding him,

20 and ye have said also, Lo, thy servant Jacob [is] behind us;' for he said, `I pacify his face with the present which is going before me, and afterwards I see his face; it may be he lifteth up my face;'

21 and the present passeth over before his face, and he hath lodged during that night in the camp.

22 And he riseth in that night, and taketh his two wives, and his two maid-servants, and his eleven children, and passeth over the passage of Jabbok;

23 and he taketh them, and causeth them to pass over the brook, and he causeth that which he hath to pass over.

24 And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;

25 and he seeth that he is not able for him, and he cometh against the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh is disjointed in his wrestling with him;

26 and he saith, `Send me away, for the dawn hath ascended:' and he saith, `I send thee not away, except thou hast blessed me.'

27 And he saith unto him, `What [is] thy name?' and he saith, `Jacob.'

28 And he saith, `Thy name is no more called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast been a prince with God and with men, and dost prevail.'

29 And Jacob asketh, and saith, `Declare, I pray thee, thy name;' and he saith, `Why [is] this, thou askest for My name?' and He blesseth him there.

30 And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'

31 and the sun riseth on him when he hath passed over Penuel, and he is halting on his thigh;

32 therefore the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew which shrank, which [is] on the hollow of the thigh, unto this day, because He came against the hollow of Jacob's thigh, against the sinew which shrank.

[_gdemetz]

That was the cite in the quotation marks.

[_LittleNipper]

Genesis 33:1-20 Soon Jacob sees Easu coming with his "hoards" of 400 men. Jacob/Israel divides the family into three groups. The 1st group has the maid servants and those children. The 2nd group cotains Leah and her children. The last group has Rachel and Joseph (guess whom Israel loves the most?). And Israel takes the lead and goes towards Esau and bows very low 7 times. Esau runs out to meet Jacob and grabs his brother and hugs & kisses him and both cry... Esau sees all the people with Israel and everyone is introduced. Esau asks about the flocks and herds which arrived earlier. Jacob replies that they are gifts. Esau says he has plenty and tells Israel to keep this for himself. But Jacob is insistant and very happy that Esau is happy. And Jacob says that God has been gracious to him. Esau agrees to keep the gifts and says that he will lead the way. Jacob says that it is better for Esau to go ahead, as the children are young and so it is with much of the flocks and herds. If they are pushed too much they may die. Jacob will move slower and meet Esau at Seir. Esau suggests leaving some of his men for protection; however, Jacob says that is not necessary as he is grateful that Esau has been so friendly. Esau agrees and leaves; however, Jacob then goes to Soccoth (meaning shelter) and builds a refuge and shelters for his animals. Later Jacob travels all the way from Paddan-aram, arriving safely at the town of Shechem, in Canaan, and sets up camp outside the town. Jacob buys the plot land where he camped from the family of Hamor, the founder of Shechem, for 100 pieces of silver. There Jacob builts an altar and called it El-Elohe-Israel (The God of Israel). [Note: One can only wonder if Jacob really trusted Esau]

Footnotes:
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Jacob lifteth up his eyes, and looketh, and lo, Esau is coming, and with him four hundred men; and he divideth the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two maid-servants;

2 and he setteth the maid-servants and their children first, and Leah and her children behind, and Rachel and Joseph last.

3 And he himself passed over before them, and boweth himself to the earth seven times, until his drawing nigh unto his brother,

4 and Esau runneth to meet him, and embraceth him, and falleth on his neck, and kisseth him, and they weep;

5 and he lifteth up his eyes, and seeth the women and the children, and saith, `What [are] these to thee?' And he saith, `The children with whom God hath favoured thy servant.'

6 And the maid-servants draw nigh, they and their children, and bow themselves;

7 and Leah also draweth nigh, and her children, and they bow themselves; and afterwards Joseph hath drawn nigh with Rachel, and they bow themselves.

8 And he saith, `What to thee [is] all this camp which I have met?' and he saith, `To find grace in the eyes of my lord.'

9 And Esau saith, `I have abundance, my brother, let it be to thyself that which thou hast.'

10 And Jacob saith, `Nay, I pray thee, if, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, then thou hast received my present from my hand, because that I have seen thy face, as the seeing of the face of God, and thou art pleased with me;

11 receive, I pray thee, my blessing, which is brought to thee, because God hath favoured me, and because I have all [things];' and he presseth on him, and he receiveth,

12 and saith, `Let us journey and go on, and I go on before thee.'

13 And he saith unto him, `My lord knoweth that the children [are] tender, and the suckling flock and the herd [are] with me; when they have beaten them one day, then hath all the flock died.

14 Let my lord, I pray thee, pass over before his servant, and I -- I lead on gently, according to the foot of the work which [is] before me, and to the foot of the children, until that I come unto my lord, to Seir.'

15 And Esau saith, `Let me, I pray thee, place with thee some of the people who [are] with me;' and he said, `Why [is] this? I find grace in the eyes of my lord.'

16 And turn back on that day doth Esau on his way to Seir;

17 and Jacob hath journeyed to Succoth, and buildeth to himself a house, and for his cattle hath made booths, therefore hath he called the name of the place Succoth.

18 And Jacob cometh in to Shalem, a city of Shechem, which [is] in the land of Canaan, in his coming from Padan-Aram, and encampeth before the city,

19 and he buyeth the portion of the field where he hath stretched out his tent, from the hand of the sons of Hamor, father of Shechem, for a hundred kesitah;

20 and he setteth up there an altar, and proclaimeth at it God -- the God of Israel.

[_gdemetz]

Albion, if you would take the time to look over some of these documented cases, some clearly show that it is not possible for the event to occur only in the mind! The subjects have been able to discern things which they have never seen before, such as in the "red shoe" case.

[Guest]

Genesis 34:1-31 So Dinah, Jacob's daughter goes to visit some young local women. But the local prince, Shechem son of Hamor a Hivite, saw Dinah, he raped her. However, he falls in love with her, and tries to win her affection. He asks his father, Hamor, to get this young girl. He wishes to marry her. Jacob hears that Shechem has raped Dinah. But since his sons were out in the fields herding, he said nothing until they returned. Hamor, Shechem’s father, came to discuss the situation with Jacob. Jacob’s sons had come in from the field as soon as they heard what had happened. They were shocked and mad that their sister had been raped. Dinah and the family had been disgraced. Hamor tried to speak with Jacob and his sons. He even suggests arranging other marriages, between daughters and sons and live together... Shechem himself spoke to Dinah’s father and brothers and begged -- he would pay anything. But since Shechem had defiled their sister, Dinah, Jacob’s sons responded deceitfully to Shechem and his father, Hamor. They say first he must be circumcised. Hamor and his son Shechem agree and wasted no time in acting on this request. Shechem persuades the entire community to do this. So all the men in the town council agreed with Hamor and Shechem, and every male in the town is circumcised. 3 days later, when their wounds were still sore, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, who were Dinah’s full brothers, took their swords and entered the town without opposition. Then they killed all the males there, including Hamor and his son Shechem with their swords. Then took Dinah from Shechem’s house and returned to their camp, The rest of Jacob’s sons arrived. Finding the men slaughtered, they plundered the town because their sister had been defiled there. They took all the flocks and herds and donkeys—everything they could lay their hands on, both inside the town and outside in the fields. They also took all the little children and wives and led them away as captives. Jacob says to Simeon and Levi, that he and the family name has been ruined among all the people of this land—among all the Canaanites and Perizzites. They will wipe them out! They retorted angrily why should their sister be a prostitute.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Dinah, daughter of Leah, whom she hath borne to Jacob, goeth out to look on the daughters of the land,

2 and Shechem, son of Hamor the Hivite, a prince of the land, seeth her, and taketh her, and lieth with her, and humbleth her;

3 and his soul cleaveth to Dinah, daughter of Jacob, and he loveth the young person, and speaketh unto the heart of the young person.

4 And Shechem speaketh unto Hamor his father, saying, `Take for me this damsel for a wife.'

5 And Jacob hath heard that he hath defiled Dinah his daughter, and his sons were with his cattle in the field, and Jacob kept silent till their coming.

6 And Hamor, father of Shechem, goeth out unto Jacob to speak with him;

7 and the sons of Jacob came in from the field when they heard, and the men grieve themselves, and it [is] very displeasing to them, for folly he hath done against Israel, to lie with the daughter of Jacob -- and so it is not done.

8 And Hamor speaketh with them, saying, `Shechem, my son, his soul hath cleaved to your daughter; give her, I pray you, to him for a wife,

9 and join ye in marriage with us; your daughters ye give to us, and our daughters ye take to yourselves,

10 and with us ye dwell, and the land is before you; dwell ye and trade [in] it, and have possessions in it.'

11 And Shechem saith unto her father, and unto her brethren, `Let me find grace in your eyes, and that which ye say unto me, I give;

12 multiply on me exceedingly dowry and gift, and I give as ye say unto me, and give to me the young person for a wife.'

13 And the sons of Jacob answer Shechem and Hamor his father deceitfully, and they speak (because he defiled Dinah their sister),

14 and say unto them, `We are not able to do this thing, to give our sister to one who hath a foreskin: for it [is] a reproach to us.

15 `Only for this we consent to you; if ye be as we, to have every male of you circumcised,

16 then we have given our daughters to you, and your daughters we take to ourselves, and we have dwelt with you, and have become one people;

17 and if ye hearken not unto us to be circumcised, then we have taken our daughter, and have gone.'

18 And their words are good in the eyes of Hamor, and in the eyes of Shechem, Hamor's son;

19 and the young man delayed not to do the thing, for he had delight in Jacob's daughter, and he is honourable above all the house of his father.

20 And Hamor cometh -- Shechem his son also -- unto the gate of their city, and they speak unto the men of their city, saying,

21 `These men are peaceable with us; then let them dwell in the land, and trade [in] it; and the land, lo, [is] wide before them; their daughters let us take to ourselves for wives, and our daughters give to them.

22 `Only for this do the men consent to us, to dwell with us, to become one people, in every male of us being circumcised, as they are circumcised;

23 their cattle, and their substance, and all their beasts -- are they not ours? only let us consent to them, and they dwell with us.'

24 And unto Hamor, and unto Shechem his son, hearken do all those going out of the gate of his city, and every male is circumcised, all those going out of the gate of his city.

25 And it cometh to pass, on the third day, in their being pained, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, take each his sword, and come in against the city confidently, and slay every male;

26 and Hamor, and Shechem his son, they have slain by the mouth of the sword, and they take Dinah out of Shechem's house, and go out.

27 Jacob's sons have come in upon the wounded, and they spoil the city, because they had defiled their sister;

28 their flock and their herd, and their asses, and that which [is] in the city, and that which [is] in the field, have they taken;

29 and all their wealth, and all their infants, and their wives they have taken captive, and they spoil also all that [is] in the house.

30 And Jacob saith unto Simeon and unto Levi, `Ye have troubled me, by causing me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanite, and among the Perizzite: and I [am] few in number, and they have been gathered against me, and have smitten me, and I have been destroyed, I and my house.'

31 And they say, `As a harlot doth he make our sister?'

[_ludwigm]

Genesis 34:1-31

Edifying, uplifting story.

First a little bloody pogrom...
"they killed all the males there, including Hamor and his son Shechem"
"the rest of Jacob’s sons arrived... they plundered the town"

...then the pecuniary incentives.
"they took all the flocks and herds and donkeys—everything they could lay their hands on, both inside the town and outside in the fields"
"they also took all the little children and wives and led them away as captives"

One can love the words of god, especially for these excerpts.

[_LittleNipper]

Genesis 34:1-31

Edifying, uplifting story.

First a little bloody pogrom...
"they killed all the males there, including Hamor and his son Shechem"
"the rest of Jacob’s sons arrived... they plundered the town"

...then the pecuniary incentives.
"they took all the flocks and herds and donkeys—everything they could lay their hands on, both inside the town and outside in the fields"
"they also took all the little children and wives and led them away as captives"

One can love the words of god, especially for these excerpts.

In this case the story is a historical account. God didn't say He was happy about it, and Jacob certainly was not thrilled. But it does go to say that one's personal behavior/actions can most certainly effect the lives of others. And rape is a terrible thing and as evil as murder.

[_Mittens]

President Charles W. Penrose, speaking of capital punishment, has said:

This divine law for shedding the blood of a murderer has never been repealed. It is a law given by the Almighty and not abrogated in the Christian faith. It stands on record for all time—that a murderer shall have his blood shed. He that commits murder must be slain. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." I know there are some benevolent and philanthropic people in these times who think that capital punishment ought to be abolished. Yet I think the Lord knows better than they. The law he ordained will have the best results to mankind in general.(Penrose, Charlesw., Blood Atonement, pp.25-26.)
President Penrose then continues:

Well, is there any other sin that a man may commit which is worthy of death? I think there is. I will refer you to one in the Book of Leviticus, 20th chapter and 10th verse.

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."