Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

JO, whether or not you believe in universalism is entirely up to you. As I have stated, I do not believe it to be a Biblical concept and have seen no evidence yet of its validity. In stating, as you appear to be, that Jesus's atonement did not meet the demands of justice just defines the huge gap between Christian and Mormon theology and is another example to me of the way Mormonism diminishes the sufficiency of Christ. God's mercy shown at Calvary is complete and full and is offered freely to all who believe. I do not believe that universalism directly affects salvation except in perhaps persuading some to foolishly think that they can put off making their relationship with God right because they will get another bite of the apple. Wishing and wanting something to be true does not make it so.

[_Albion]

P.S, Jo, I must confess that I added the words "living lives of repentance and obedience" for the benefit of certain Mormons on the board who persist in mischaracterizing Christian's as believing that once they have confessed Christ they can do anything they want.

[_jo1952]

P.S, Jo, I must confess that I added the words "living lives of repentance and obedience" for the benefit of certain Mormons on the board who persist in mischaracterizing Christian's as believing that once they have confessed Christ they can do anything they want.

Hi Albion -

Thank you for clarifying this. I don't know if you have posted to many other religious apologetic websites. You would be disappointed to find out that there are Christians who believe that once they have confessed Christ they can do anything they want. Probably this is why some of the LDS posters on this website have made this type of statement. I've been surprised by other things which some Christians have claimed. I think by now, though, nothing claimed by individuals of any religion surprises me anymore --- not even statements made by members of the LDS Church. Instead of shaking my head in disbelief, I just shake my head.

To be clear, when I use the word Christian(s) it is not necessarily the definition which I hold to; but is generally the definition of whomever I am responding to. My definition of Christian includes anyone and every religious organization which professes Christ, the Son of Almighty God, as their Savior regardless of whether or not mainstream Christianity also recognizes them as "Christian".

Blessings!!

jo

[_Albion]

Jo, haven't met any...don't know any who meet the criteria you suggest. We must move in different circles. A life unchanged by an encounter with Christ to me makes the encounter suspect in the first place...and if nothing else Jesus is about changed lives. I do not take lightly the forgiveness of sin granted me at Calvary.....in the closing words of my favorite hymn: "Love so amazing, so divine, Demands my soul, my life, my all." If I have a "life verse" it would be Gal 2:20 It

[_Tobin]

Jo, haven't met any...don't know any who meet the criteria you suggest. We must move in different circles. A life unchanged by an encounter with Christ to me makes the encounter suspect in the first place...and if nothing else Jesus is about changed lives. I do not take lightly the forgiveness of sin granted me at Calvary.....in the closing words of my favorite hymn: "Love so amazing, so divine, Demands my soul, my life, my all." If I have a "life verse" it would be Gal 2:20 It

http://religiousfreaks.com/2006/05/17/j ... ve-sinned/

[_jo1952]

Jo, haven't met any...don't know any who meet the criteria you suggest. We must move in different circles. A life unchanged by an encounter with Christ to me makes the encounter suspect in the first place...and if nothing else Jesus is about changed lives. I do not take lightly the forgiveness of sin granted me at Calvary.....in the closing words of my favorite hymn: "Love so amazing, so divine, Demands my soul, my life, my all." If I have a "life verse" it would be Gal 2:20 It

Hi Albion,

There is one website in particular where mainstream Christians have claimed some very surprising beliefs. One poster told me that the work of the Holy Spirit was finished; and that His work was completed when He taught the ancient Apostles "All Truth". Therefore, it was inappropriate to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit because this only opened you up to demonic possession.

Several posters made the claim that it was only after they were able to find (which in their minds suited their personal requirements of establishing "truth"), sufficient physical evidence which supported stories in the Bible, that they decided to believe in Christ.

Yet others (one was a Baptist Minister) felt that no further repentance was necessary because repentance re-crucified Christ. Therefore, their definition of repentance AFTER they were baptized, changed from the definition they used for repentance prior to their baptism. After baptism, repentance became a manifestation of their willingness to fellowship with other believers. Thus going to church was what they claimed the Apostles were talking about whenever the Apostles continued to teach repentance. These particular Christians further justified their adjusted take on repentance after baptism by claiming that at the time they were baptized, all of their sins past, present, and future, had been forgiven.

There are more; but I'm not going to bother going into them right now. Have you heard of any of the above before?

I would agree that a life unchanged who has accepted and professed Christ as their Savior, makes that encounter suspect (I changed some of the words for clarification--hope that is okay). I also do not take lightly the forgiveness of sins which Christ's Atonement provides.

Gal 2:20 is indeed very beautiful! I don't know as I have a favorite verse in Scripture----there are so many which are profoundly beautiful. Also, I would be hard pressed to pick out a favorite hymn - though "I Know That My Redeemer Lives" would be in the Top Ten. There are many I cannot get through without crying in humble awe and thanksgiving. My favorite Christmas Hymn is "O Holy Night!".

Blessings!

jo

[_gdemetz]

Jo, maybe Albion is one of those rare evangelists who never heard their expression: "once saved, always saved"!

[_Mittens]

Best rendetion of "I Know That My Redeemer Lives" from my U-Tube account, I have two but this is the best

http://youtu.be/5fJ20XIa9Cw


Martina McBride does "O Holy Night' the best

[_Albion]

Actually, gedemetz, the Baptists I know call it "eternal security" and there are numerous verses they use to support their belief. I do not, however, know any Baptists myself who use this idea as an excuse to live unChristian lives after the salvation experience. I did attend a Baptist church in SLC for a time and only ever heard one sermon preached on that topic. My feeling at that time, and my belief now, is that since I am not contemplating changing my lifestyle to one that might put my salvation in jeopardy, it isn't something I worry too much about....and as I said, if a person claims salvation in Christ but their life does not reflect or demonstrate that change it would be legitimate to question whether their claim was genuine in the first place. But then, too, since Christians are only sinners saved by grace, I don't expect to see flawlessness in people either way.

[_Mittens]

I go to a Baptist Church and last sermon was on these verses
Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

could read for Mormon

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not baptised for the dead, not sipped coffee or tea, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I'd say we our taught our works mean little to salvation, but our for showing our Faith.


http://youtu.be/ADDF-bz6Zys