The Evangelical Problem, a top ten

[_jo1952]

If God exists and if one accepts a God who is not a liar or a respecter of persons "only true Church" is the only rational and logical conclusion.

If God tells one group of people something about His nature and requirements for salvation and tells a different group something different about those, then God is a liar and a respecter of persons. There is only one true Church or no legitimate church at all.

Since the LDS Church teaches that it is the only true and living Church on the face of the whole (D&C 1:30), one cannot possibly be a TBM if one does not accept this scripture and doctrine.

Hi BC

D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

There are ALWAYS layers of understanding to be had in ALL of Scripture. Therefore, the Bible, the D&C, the Book of Mormon, and the PoGP all have layers of meaning. Jesus did establish only one physical church when He walked the earth in the flesh. The Restoration re-established what that physical church had been. This was necessary because His original organization had fallen into obscurity and darkness. Thus, "I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively (membership) and not individually. "Individually" the Lord was not pleased with those who led the church into a state of apostasy. This also indicated that there were those in the LDS Church whom He was not pleased with.

"bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" does NOT mean that His church had disappeared. Obscurred means not easily seen. The ancient church (the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth) had not been obliterated.

Where the summary for this Doctrine and Covenant says: The Book of Mormon is brought forth and the true Church is established;,
I believe that the words used can be misleading and misinterpreted. The Church is a Restoration; the "true" church is being "RE"-established. Where the summary says: Joseph Smith is called to restore to earth the Lord’s truths and powers, we already KNOW that the Lord had NOT taught All Truth. So, we should not be making claims or be thinking that what was Restored through Joseph Smith was the "completeness" of Truth. Jesus taught us only what the Father wanted Him to reveal. He did not teach everything He knew.

I do not believe that every Christian held to what became known as "orthodoxy". In fact, in accordance with the ancient church's early history, in-fighting had been going on even while Jesus and the ancient Apostles were alive; i.e., "even now there are false teachers and false prophets among you". Church leaders tried to keep out false teachings and false prophecies; but man being who man is, repeated what the Pharisees had done. Soon those jockeying for position as leaders eventually gained control over those unable to contend against them.

I believe there has always been a remnant of those who believed in and practiced what Jesus and the Apostles taught; they hung on to the True Gospel. In all dispensations, there has always been a remnant who has hung on to the real Truth.

The purpose of the Restoration, however, was to bring the True Gospel "out of obscurity and darkness". This does NOT mean that there was no remnant of the True Gospel left on the earth. It just could not be found due to the obscurity and darkness. The Restoration was a renewed effort to bring the True Gospel back into view and back into Light.

For years I used to share my testimony: "I knew the Church was True." But what I didn't realize at the time was that in making this claim, I was denying that Truth existed anywhere else, or that members of Christ's Church could exist outside of the LDS Church. Yet, Joseph Smith taught that Truth existed everywhere! What I should have been sharing was the testimony that I knew we had the True Gospel. Meh....my journey has taken me farther now. Now I understand that there is a distinction.

I would also like to share that the "spiritual" church extends into ALL denominations, and even into ALL world religions, and further. Therefore, the physical LDS Church does NOT represent the "spiritual" church. When I speak of the spiritual church, I am referring to the Church of the Lamb of God; as opposed to the church of Satan. However, members of the LDS Church, as well as members of every other denomination and world religion (and even individuals who are not members of ANY religious organization) can be a member of the Church of the Lamb of God OR be a member of the church of Satan; changing camps from moment to moment; choice by choice, etc. Even atheists and agnostics are members of one church or the other. Their actions from moment to moment determine which church they are in.

Blessings,

jo

[_bcspace]

we already KNOW that the Lord had NOT taught All Truth. So, we should not be making claims or be thinking that what was Restored through Joseph Smith was the "completeness" of Truth.

I have said no such thing. But I would say that only in the LDS Church is the complete truth found that the Lord wants man to know regarding life (eternal) and salvation. So in that sense, we have the complete truth, all the God wants revealed to man and that is found in no other church.

I believe there has always been a remnant of those who believed in and practiced what Jesus and the Apostles taught; they hung on to the True Gospel. In all dispensations, there has always been a remnant who has hung on to the real Truth.

The wholesale change in doctrine shows otherwise. In addition, Besides Rev 13:7 and other verses, the early Christians knew that the Church was soon to be destroyed and replaced by an inferior one (Pastor of Hermas).

For years I used to share my testimony: "I knew the Church was True." But what I didn't realize at the time was that in making this claim, I was denying that Truth existed anywhere else,

Nothing wrong here. Science for example.

or that members of Christ's Church could exist outside of the LDS Church.

They don't. But there are indeed those who would readily accept Christ's Church (the LDS Church) when the right opportunity presents itself.

I would also like to share that the "spiritual" church extends into ALL denominations, and even into ALL world religions, and further.

I bear you my testimony that the Holy Spirit only dwells permanently in the LDS context. It may fall upon others from time to time as in the day of Pentecost, but as Peter noted, once that happens, you need to be baptised (by their authority which now resides in the LDS Church) and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[_Franktalk]

I have said no such thing. But I would say that only in the LDS Church is the complete truth found that the Lord wants man to know regarding life (eternal) and salvation. So in that sense, we have the complete truth, all the God wants revealed to man and that is found in no other church........

.....Nothing wrong here. Science for example......

I seem to remember having this conversation before. Something about which is more of a reference, the Bible or science. Maybe you remember this.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/557 ... e__st__100

You said:

"Sure. But I have posited merely that we worship on the altars of science, not that we worship science itself. Interestingly one actually uses the scientific method to find out if the doctrine is true. John 7:17 for example."

So science is used to tell if doctrine is true according to you.

While the church was established by the Nephites did the people in Europe know of the church? Could there be a church today besides the LDS church that we don't know about? Wake up BCSpace. Why do you place God in a box? Why do you use science as a yardstick to measure scripture?

[_jo1952]

I have said no such thing. But I would say that only in the LDS Church is the complete truth found that the Lord wants man to know regarding life (eternal) and salvation. So in that sense, we have the complete truth, all the God wants revealed to man and that is found in no other church.

Hi BC:

So, do you believe when Joseph Smith taught us to seek for Truth everywhere we could find it, that he didn't mean what he said? Or, perhaps, that it was not necessary for us to seek it?

The wholesale change in doctrine shows otherwise. In addition, Besides Rev 13:7 and other verses, the early Christians knew that the Church was soon to be destroyed and replaced by an inferior one (Pastor of Hermas).

The wholesale "change" in doctrine? The "Restoration" restored the True Gospel - it didn't "change" the Gospel. THEN, in ADDITION to what had been taught, more has been revealed which expands upon and adds to what had been taught.

They don't. But there are indeed those who would readily accept Christ's Church (the LDS Church) when the right opportunity presents itself.

Whoa!!! The Bible teaches this doctrine about accepting Christ! The Bible does NOT teach that we must accept Christ's Church! By accepting Christ we become a member of the Body of Christ. Through the Restoration, God has provided the means by which all members of the Body of Christ can receive their Ordinances.

I bear you my testimony that the Holy Spirit only dwells permanently in the LDS context. It may fall upon others from time to time as in the day of Pentecost, but as Peter noted, once that happens, you need to be baptised (by their authority which now resides in the LDS Church) and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

CFR please. You are confusing the Gift of the Holy Ghost with "receiving" the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost was given to the entire earth on that Pentecost after Christ's Ascension. Later the Apostles made sure that those who had been baptized by water only, "received" the Holy Ghost. Also, at the time the Gift of the Holy Ghost descended upon the group of believers, we are given evidence (by the tongues of fire) that this was the beginning of baptism by fire. This baptism takes place over time and is only complete when our spirit is completely born of the Spirit. At that time, and ONLY after this has been completed, are we able to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

John 3:3-5 (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"Receiving" the Holy Spirit is an Ordinance. An Ordinance is not a guaranty that what needs to take place will take place. The LDS Church does not have exclusivity to Exaltation.

Blessings,

jo

[Guest]

"Sure. But I have posited merely that we worship on the altars of science, not that we worship science itself. Interestingly one actually uses the scientific method to find out if the doctrine is true. John 7:17 for example."

So science is used to tell if doctrine is true according to you.

That is correct. According to the scriptures, there is a duplicatable test (doing the will of God) to know the doctrine. Any man performing the experiment correctly (honestly) will receive the same answer.

While the church was established by the Nephites did the people in Europe know of the church? Could there be a church today besides the LDS church that we don't know about?

Easily. The Book of Mormon speaks of such, 2 Nephi 29 If I recall correctly. The problem for you is that in this day and age there is only one. If there were two, they would have combined by now according to the assumption that God is not a liar or a respecter of persons.

Wake up BCSpace. Why do you place God in a box? Why do you use science as a yardstick to measure scripture?

No one is placing God in a box. God is what He is and is not what He is not. Reality is your box.

[_bcspace]

So, do you believe when Joseph Smith taught us to seek for Truth everywhere we could find it, that he didn't mean what he said? Or, perhaps, that it was not necessary for us to seek it?

You obviously didn't pay attention to what I said. Regarding life (eternal) and salvation, one can't find all of it in any church except the LDS church. Regarding other truths, they can certainly be found elsewhere as well. Seek ye out of the best books....

The wholesale "change" in doctrine?

Anthropomorphic Godhead to trinity. Etc. etc.

The "Restoration" restored the True Gospel - it didn't "change" the Gospel.

That is correct. It unhid the doctrines of the True Gospel.

THEN, in ADDITION to what had been taught, more has been revealed which expands upon and adds to what had been taught.

There is apparently very little revealed in the Restoration which the first Christians believed as one would expect. It may very well be that there is nothing at all which the early Christians didn't already believe especially since the Bible can't possibly be the only and complete word of God.

They don't. But there are indeed those who would readily accept Christ's Church (the LDS Church) when the right opportunity presents itself.

Whoa!!! The Bible teaches this doctrine about accepting Christ! The Bible does NOT teach that we must accept Christ's Church!

But the Church organization, led by apostles and prophets, is the only vehicle by which the true doctrine is disseminated (Ephesians 4:11-14).

By accepting Christ we become a member of the Body of Christ. Through the Restoration, God has provided the means by which all members of the Body of Christ can receive their Ordinances.

Sure. If one does not accept Christ's Church (the LDS Church), one is not part of the body of Christ.

I bear you my testimony that the Holy Spirit only dwells permanently in the LDS context. It may fall upon others from time to time as in the day of Pentecost, but as Peter noted, once that happens, you need to be baptised (by their authority which now resides in the LDS Church) and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

CFR please.

Acts 2

You are confusing the Gift of the Holy Ghost with "receiving" the Holy Ghost.

No, I'm differentiating between the Holy Ghost falling on unbelievers who are not yet part of the body of Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost which comes to those who align themselves with Christ by joining His Church (the LDS Church) through baptism.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost was given to the entire earth on that Pentecost after Christ's Ascension.

No, only to those who were baptized.

Later the Apostles made sure that those who had been baptized by water only, "received" the Holy Ghost.

Inconsistent with Peter's call to Christ in vs 38. Later, there was a similar experience.

Also, at the time the Gift of the Holy Ghost descended upon the group of believers,

Incorrect, As you can see in the verse, the gift came after to any who repented and were baptized. As you can see by vs. 37, they did not even believe until AFTER Peter's discourse which was AFTER the Spirit had fallen on them. Until then, they simply wondered how they could hear the preaching, every man in his own language.

we are given evidence (by the tongues of fire) that this was the beginning of baptism by fire. This baptism takes place over time and is only complete when our spirit is completely born of the Spirit. At that time, and ONLY after this has been completed, are we able to see or enter the Kingdom of God.

Sure. It is indeed a process. Even Paul admitted he wasn't saved yet.

[_Franktalk]

That is correct. According to the scriptures, there is a duplicatable test (doing the will of God) to know the doctrine. Any man performing the experiment correctly (honestly) will receive the same answer.

I think I will have to start a new term called BCspace talk. A term for someone who is very sure of themself yet is like unto a shotgun blast of beliefs. Someone who picks one from column A and one from column B. Where I am not sure of many things and know there is much to learn. In fact so much so that I have a hard time even describing what absolute truth may be. I see you have no such problem.

[_jo1952]

You obviously didn't pay attention to what I said. Regarding life (eternal) and salvation, one can't find all of it in any church except the LDS church. Regarding other truths, they can certainly be found elsewhere as well. Seek ye out of the best books....

And Jesus taught us that it would be the Holy Spirit who will lead us to All Truth. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit we cannot even know when we are seeing Truth. The Church is a vehicle; it is NOT the only "way". Christ is the only "way"; and He can be found on many different paths, NOT just through the Church.

Anthropomorphic Godhead to trinity. Etc. etc.

The Trinity dogma as understood by Christendom today and when Joseph Smith was alive is a man-made dogma. I do not think it fits inside of your explanation. What are some of the etc., etc., doctrines you are referring to?

There is apparently very little revealed in the Restoration which the first Christians believed as one would expect.

I agree we would not expect to see many differences. Sadly, though, there are things which were revealed to Joseph Smith which the Church does not teach today. As such, members of the Church today do not know of, and do not believe in everything that was Restored. Why is that?? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the Restoration?

It may very well be that there is nothing at all which the early Christians didn't already believe especially since the Bible can't possibly be the only and complete word of God.

No Canon contains the complete word of God; nor do any combinations of Canon contain the complete word of God. Jesus taught as much in the Bible; and John confirmed this. I don't think the complete word of God will ever be written because it is the Holy Spirit who reveals more parts of Truth to each individual as they are ready to receive it until such time as they have received All Truth. That is the point at which our spirit will be completely reborn of the Spirit and we will see the Kingdom of God and will have become One with Father and with Christ again.

But the Church organization, led by apostles and prophets, is the only vehicle by which the true doctrine is disseminated (Ephesians 4:11-14).

I have seen no unity of faith in the earth. There are apostles and prophets all over the earth - not just in the LDS Church. While everyone is still arguing over who has the correct beliefs, while war rages between world religions, while religious persecution exists between people of faith, there is no unity of faith.

Also, just as there were false teachers and false prophets in the ancient church, there are also false teachers and false prophets in all churches today; including in the LDS Church.

Sure. If one does not accept Christ's Church (the LDS Church), one is not part of the body of Christ.

That is not what I said. By accepting Christ we become a member of the Body of Christ. We do not have to be a member of any physical organization to accept Christ. A person does not need to accept the LDS Church in order to be saved OR to become Exalted. That is an entirely different distinction.

You are confusing the Gift of the Holy Ghost with "receiving" the Holy Ghost.

No, I'm differentiating between the Holy Ghost falling on unbelievers who are not yet part of the body of Christ and the gift of the Holy Ghost which comes to those who align themselves with Christ by joining His Church (the LDS Church) through baptism.

Actually, did you know that the Apostles had already "received" the Holy Spirit in the evening of the same day of Christ's Resurrection (which was some 40 plus days prior to Pentecost)?

John 20:19-22 (KJV)

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So the particular manifestation of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 was part of the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost, which began the fire of baptism by the Holy Ghost; NOT the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost manifests in many different ways depending upon the individual. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is NOT the same thing as the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost.

Inconsistent with Peter's call to Christ in vs 38. Later, there was a similar experience.

Acts 2:16-18 (KJV) (emphasis is mine)

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Also note that there is a distinction between verse 17 and 18; they are not redundant. It is not only within the LDS Church that "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions," etc.. This is happening all over the earth.

Incorrect, As you can see in the verse, the gift came after to any who repented and were baptized. As you can see by vs. 37, they did not even believe until AFTER Peter's discourse which was AFTER the Spirit had fallen on them. Until then, they simply wondered how they could hear the preaching, every man in his own language.

I understand why you have reached the interpretation you have reached. However, when Peter tells the group that if they would repent and be baptized that they would receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, he did not say that the Apostles would then lay their hands on their heads in order to "receive" the Holy Ghost. Indeed, I believe that when the Gift of the Holy Ghost was first given to the earth, Father was able to further His purposes by having large groups of people convert to accepting Christ by creating circumstances whereby Peter's preaching COULD pierce the hearts of the same Israelites who had crucified their own Savior. This was a big deal because the Jews had been blinded as to Christ's identity.

This would NOT be the same type of manifestation that would continue. We know this by studying subsequent events in the Bible where individuals who accepted Christ and had been baptized by water still needed to have someone with the power and authority to perform the Ordinance of receiving the Holy Ghost. We need to reconcile what at first appears to be a conflict; it is much easier when we understand that the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost is not the same as the Ordinance of "receiving" the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is freely given to ALL flesh. The Ordinance of "receiving" the Holy Ghost is a separate event.

As more evidence to back up my comments, I would say to look at all of the people in the world who are alive today, as well as all those who died after that Pentecost who have not had an LDS Elder perform this Ordinance for them (in proxy), or upon them (live). Therefore, Peter's testimony that this was the prophecy spoken by the Prophet Joel, would have been a lie. In other words, your interpretation extremely limits what having the Spirit "poured out upon all flesh" means and looks like.

Indeed, the biggest evidence is in the fact that the Apostles had already received the Holy Ghost by Jesus Himself, on the evening of the day Jesus was Resurrected (except for Thomas who was not with them that night. Though the Bible is silent on this matter, my guess is that Thomas also received the Holy Ghost by Jesus during the same meeting when Thomas was able to see and touch Jesus' wounds.)

Blessings,

jo

[_Franktalk]

BCSpace,

It is my belief that to have faith in God requires that I believe in miracles. Since miracles can not be tested by the scientific method how do you judge which miracles are true or not? The miracle of the flood, do you toss it? The miracle of the resurrection, do you toss it? Just how do you judge God's miracles?

[_moksha]

Within this particular context, the term ecumenism refers to the idea of a Christian unity in the literal meaning: that there should be a single Christian Church.

Why don't we widen the context to say ecumenism recognizes fellow believers and attempts to bring a common understanding to these believers in order to promote their coexistance.