The Bottom Line

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_LittleNipper
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _LittleNipper »

malkie wrote:
just me wrote:
So, you suppose that all reproduction for all animal life ceased for 3-4 years prior to the Great Deluge? Where do you get that from the Bible?

by the way, I think killing all adults casts a pretty big shadow, too. I try not to be an ageist when it comes to who is being murdered.

Thanks - us old guys really appreciate you for that.

We have no indication that there were any babies or children around when the Flood started. Noah had no grandchildren. There is only an assumption of babies for those who are trying to cast a shadow on God's judgment. God's perfect timing may very well have been when only adults were around. So, there you are standing outside of the Ark and the rains begin... What would you say then?
So, the truth comes out --- you don't care a thing about babies. What concerns you is that anyone could be drowned by God. How about the fact that people die every day from all sorts of diseases and accidents. I suppose that you feel God should do something about that too. Well, what exactly do we do for God? God is the Creator. He brought you into this world and I feel He has every right to take you out of it at His leasure. Where do you presume that there were babies born right up to the Flood. Noah had a wife and three sons, and they had wives. Only those eight. How long was Noah and his sons working on the Ark? Perhaps you should look that up on the "Bible verse by verse"... God doesn't inform us of everything. I'm sure He has to deal with enough stupidity and arrogance on the part of a sinful world. If God saved all the babies, then there would be people who'd take issue with this and with that. The sinful things man does count for nothing it would seem. I've heard that after the 1906 San Fancisco Earthquake that revival broke out all over California. So, I feel that God allows everything to happen for a reason. Some will learn from it and some will not get it, even though they are drowning. What you do to another of God's creation is murder. What God allows is His prerogative ---- He owns everything including us.

See: http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... evangelist
ii Peter 2:4-22
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them into gloomy dungeonsb to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.c 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful natured and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.e 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
Last edited by Guest on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
_subgenius
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _subgenius »

malkie wrote:You might like to note that what you attribute to me was my paraphrasing Tobin - take it up with him!

duly noted, thank you.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _subgenius »

LittleNipper wrote:God established the LAW for us. The LAW dosn't exist without God.

like i said before, that is certainly your assumption...but that is not an easy assumption given what we ascertain about the character and nature of God.
Personally, i think a good argument could made for either side of this issue....though i admit that i lean more towards the Law being the essence/genesis of God, that God is the Law as it is "manifest". But perhaps that is because He is subject to the Law (ie. He can not lie).
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _subgenius »

Themis wrote:Try reading my earlier post where I do say there tends to be basic agreement by most people on certain things.

but obviously this is not sufficient? you would require agreement on all things...down to any one's claim as to what "tastes good"?...you are cherry picking your criticism....or rather, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Themis wrote:Some of those things would be murder, lying, stealing, etc. Other ones have much less agreement. Sex is a good one, although church's like LDS have changed over time. What we tend to agree on is things that have the best interest of societies success and survival.

so, for you...there is no bottom line? you seem to be all over the place with your position on this issue.
either you agree or don't agree with the premise...or are you just "confused"?


Themis wrote:by the way it makes no sense for you to pull out the Supernatural aspect when you can't even be consistent with it.

i have always maintained the same consistent position.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_malkie
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _malkie »

subgenius wrote:
malkie wrote:You might like to note that what you attribute to me was my paraphrasing Tobin - take it up with him!

duly noted, thank you.

by the way, I realised when I reread what I said that it comes off a bit snippy - sorry, not intended. I know I can be quite snarky sometimes, but this wasn't (intentionally) one of these times.
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
_PrickKicker
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _PrickKicker »

subgenius wrote:
PrickKicker wrote:Then there's the TRUTH. Science and reason.

CFR, please.
( to be clear, please provide evidence and/or proof that science and reason are the TRUTH)


What is CFR? and Which TRUTH are you referring to?
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
_Tobin
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Tobin »

malkie wrote:
Tobin wrote:Why should he? We seem to agree. Withouth the ability to choose between good and evil, there can be no choices, no justice, no law, and so on. It's an absurd position to take.

Because of the word "unequivocally". And because he was disagreeing with you, not me.

Again, you are mistaken. I don't see a disagreement and if sub wishes to point it out, I'd be more than happy to address him about it.
malkie wrote:In other words do you think that (to take an example from Drifting) it is a good thing for people to fly planes into buildings because they believe that their god has told them to do it?
Just because someone chooses evil (and claims it is good) is NOT what I'm talking about. We have the ability to tell the difference. That doesn't mean we MUST choose to do good. Your argument is absurd here.
malkie wrote:If not, then it is possible for people to be mistaken about good and evil. Are there not cases in the scriptures in which people have been deceived into doing evil while thinking that they were doing good?
No. You are creating an fictional situation in which you are simply stating that evil is good. Again, that is completely innaccurate.
malkie wrote:Are you (and subgenius) claiming that you are immune from such an error? And this is why you insist that you cannot possibly be mistaken about the identity of the being who visited you, the one you have labeled "God"?
I did not say that. I said we have the ability to determine what is good and evil. We must be able to choose. People who choose evil don't necessarily do it because they think they are doing evil. They may have convinced themselves they are doing good. But, they have deluded themselves into believing so. That does not mean they did not possess the ability to determine the difference however. You seem to fail again and again to grasp what I'm stating to you.

Again, malkie, your position is we are UNABLE to tell the difference between good and evil. That is what I'm stating is absurd. We certainly do have the ability to tell the difference and MUST have the ability for free will, choice, justice, and so on to make any sense.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Themis
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Themis »

Drifting wrote:
For some people, flying planes into the World Trade Centres was a good thing, for others it was a bad thing. Both groups believe God agrees with them.


Millions of people in the world think this was a good act, while millions more think it was a bad or evil act. Same for the Old Testament God commanding the killing of children.
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_Themis
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:
Themis wrote:Try reading my earlier post where I do say there tends to be basic agreement by most people on certain things.

but obviously this is not sufficient? you would require agreement on all things...down to any one's claim as to what "tastes good"?...you are cherry picking your criticism....or rather, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


Now be honest. I have made no suggestion that requires agreement on all things. If one says they don't like the taste of chocolate, I don't think it is bad or good. IT is just what they like or don't like. Bad and good are just what people define them on, and we agree on many and don't agree on others.

so, for you...there is no bottom line? you seem to be all over the place with your position on this issue.
either you agree or don't agree with the premise...or are you just "confused"?


I have been consistent with the issue here. It is not inconsistent to observe people tend to have almost universal agreement on things like murder, lying, charity, etc as to whether they are good or bad. On other things like sex there is much less agreement on what is bad or good, or say drinking coffee.

i have always maintained the same consistent position.


Not really

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25324
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_Themis
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:I did not say that. I said we have the ability to determine what is good and evil. We must be able to choose. People who choose evil don't necessarily do it because they think they are doing evil. They may have convinced themselves they are doing good. But, they have deluded themselves into believing so. That does not mean they did not possess the ability to determine the difference however. You seem to fail again and again to grasp what I'm stating to you.


Sure you think good and evil are absolutes defined by God, or maybe even just laws of the universe. I think this is wrong, and I think there is plenty of evidence if you are open minded enough to see it.
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