The Bottom Line

[_Gunnar]

Jo, in answer to your last post, the word "natural" to me means everything that exists or can exist, which includes even God if he, in fact, exists. To me, to insist that something is "supernatural" or somehow "beyond nature" is equivalent to admitting that it doesn't exist. There may well be things that exist that we cannot perceive and may never be able to perceive directly, but unless they have a perceivable and measurable impact on us and on reality, we cannot be reasonably obligated to believe in them, or in any way disparaged for not believing in them.

As for the Bible and other holy scriptures, the more I study them and learn about them and compare that with the empirical, scientific knowledge that has accumulated since the books in the Bible were first written down, and observe the numerous contradictions, failed prophecies and the horrible atrocities documented in it that were supposedly sanctioned or even commanded by God, the more obvious it becomes to me that it is merely another collection of books authored by fallible, sometimes petty and even vicious human beings. It has often been said, even by some who were once devout Christian preachers (Dan Barker, for example) that nothing will turn one into an atheist faster than reading the Bible from cover to cover.

[Guest]

Gunnar,

Please point out how, in my statements, I am being hypocritical in the slightest. That should be easy to provide a quote and an example if it is true. Otherwise, I'll stand by my assertion that those that state they "tried" to find God and quit had no dedication to start with. As far as I am concerned, it is simply another baseless attack by Themis and unfounded as are practically all of his statements.

Why does he need to, when others have done so. You admit to being an ex-Mormon atheist when you thought God showed up, yet you attack people you don't know and assume they never really tried simply because they never got an answer. You attack them for not doing the same thing forever and expecting a different result. yet you didn't. You gave up probably before most here, and they didn't give up until they saw evidence showing the church was not what it claimed to be.

[Guest]

This has been addressed, in many ways by many posters...your inability of unwillingness to accept the answer does nothing for anyone. You obviously have no intention on being persuaded as the issue is, in your mind, settled.

No you and others have not. You assert, but you don't back up the assertions. I could take this as a concession, but that would be a form of lying that you are, yet again, guilty of above. Says a lot about as person that even after being told to stop lying about others they continue to do so. You like to say we can't know anything absolutly and then go off saying you can spirituality. Again how does an fallible person receive an infallible witness.

your first new error (old errors have been previously noted, found not to be to your liking, so dismissed) - You propose that God's response requires human judgment for discernment....not accurate nor have you provided proof that this is the case.

Who cares. You are human and therefore any communication from what ever source is going to have to go through fallible human judgement.

In the USA we tend to understand that some things are "self-evident". This means that they defy, or supersede, "judgment". When God is manifest upon a person, there is no decision to be made about whether it is or is not. Yes, it really is that simple, just as many things in life are.

BS. At least many LDS can be honest about it.

[_Gunnar]

this is obviously just what "you figger is right". Please, provide reasoning or evidence...neither of which are foreign to you, just practically and often elusive.
Your proclamation here is nothing more than an affirmation to myself and others that you are without the experience to offer the criticism that you offer. You have exposed yourself as being as a Beti-Pahuin criticizing an Eskimo's igloo.
In other words, it is abundantly clear that you know not of what you speak.

Come on now! You honestly think this little diatribe makes any sense at all?

[Guest]

Inasmuch as the spiritual realm is not visible to the naked human eye, where exactly are we going to be able to find physical evidence to support our faith in the supernatural?

If it is real then there can be evidence of such. Plenty of things cannot be seen that show physical evidence they exist. Black holes come to mind.

I believe that when we are looking for physical and worldly evidences concerning the physical realm your approach to faith pretty much needs to be used in the way you describe. However, when considering faith in connection with the spiritual realm, we cannot use those same boundaries.

Yet I see faith being used as faith in God's existance instead of faith in God. The latter would have value if God exists. The former does not.

Unless they have received a personal experiencing of the Holy Ghost, they will not know that there is a difference.

Yet you are unwilling to articulate what the difference is, even though I can find material by the church attempting to do so. In another thread a TBM is attempting to do so. You assume others have not had similar experiences simple based on whether they agree with your interpretations. There are plenty of people who will tell you that you have not had a genuine experience with the HG simply because you do not agree with their interpretations.

[_PrickKicker]

LDS Bible Dictionary. Faith...All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results.
Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more than belief, since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical and mental action; it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the things hoped for. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Could you explain what this means in basic English.

[_jo1952]

That is your belief. by the way it is not an LDS belief. Our beliefs can matter because they can affect how we interact with the world we perceive. The more incorrect our belief are the bigger the potential for negative consequences.

I know where my beliefs go beyond what the LDS Church teaches. I know where individual members aren't up-to-speed on what the LDS Church teaches. I also know when a member of the LDS Church claims they understand what the LDS Church teaches, but they haven't got a clue.

No one is forcing you to change any beliefs. It's just a little hypocritical that some how it's wrong for me to express why I think a certain belief is wrong, but not you.

Themis, you have been asking the same questions and making the same presentations to me about the very same subjects over and over and over again. You do the same thing to everyone else who disagrees with you. You need to get past it and stop putting the blame on others. The truth of the matter is that you don't like the answers you are given, so you pretend that no support for answers have been given. What is worse when putting the burden of proof on others that they have experienced the Holy Ghost, you want them to play the role of the Holy Ghost for you so that you can understand what they are talking about. It's just not going to happen.

Unless you want to discuss a brand new topic, I am not going to continue being dragged into discussing with you what we have already covered.

Blessings,

jo

[_Drifting]

That is your belief. by the way it is not an LDS belief. Our beliefs can matter because they can affect how we interact with the world we perceive. The more incorrect our belief are the bigger the potential for negative consequences.

I know where my beliefs go beyond what the LDS Church teaches. I know where individual members aren't up-to-speed on what the LDS Church teaches. I also know when a member of the LDS Church claims they understand what the LDS Church teaches, but they haven't got a clue.

No one is forcing you to change any beliefs. It's just a little hypocritical that some how it's wrong for me to express why I think a certain belief is wrong, but not you.

Themis, you have been asking the same questions and making the same presentations to me about the very same subjects over and over and over again. You do the same thing to everyone else who disagrees with you. You need to get past it and stop putting the blame on others. The truth of the matter is that you don't like the answers you are given, so you pretend that no support for answers have been given. What is worse when putting the burden of proof on others that they have experienced the Holy Ghost, you want them to play the role of the Holy Ghost for you so that you can understand what they are talking about. It's just not going to happen.

Unless you want to discuss a brand new topic, I am not going to continue being dragged into discussing with you what we have already covered.

Blessings,

jo

Your tone is that of the ward 'know it all'. Is that deliberate?

[_Themis]

I know where my beliefs go beyond what the LDS Church teaches. I know where individual members aren't up-to-speed on what the LDS Church teaches. I also know when a member of the LDS Church claims they understand what the LDS Church teaches, but they haven't got a clue.

I am referring to your comment about the physical body being a temporary shell for the spirit. This is popular in many christian groups, but is the opposite of what the LDS church teaches. They teach it is to be a permanent shell. The church has a very different view of the physical then you do. I am not criticizing you for having a different belief then the LDS church, but it is a different belief.

Themis, you have been asking the same questions and making the same presentations to me about the very same subjects over and over and over again. You do the same thing to everyone else who disagrees with you. You need to get past it and stop putting the blame on others. The truth of the matter is that you don't like the answers you are given, so you pretend that no support for answers have been given.

Again you need to take a good look at yourself. You do the same thing, even if you do put some flowers around it. I know answers ahve been given about the flood, but I don't see those answer being backed up with how they are correct. As such they are just an assertion.

What is worse when putting the burden of proof on others that they have experienced the Holy Ghost, you want them to play the role of the Holy Ghost for you so that you can understand what they are talking about. It's just not going to happen.

I realize I need to keep repeating this since many do not seem to understand the issue and what is being asked. I am not asking for evidence of your experience. I believe you have had spiritual experiences. I am asking for how you determine the meanings of these experiences, and how you determine that they are accurate where objective truths are being claimed from them. I am familiar with my own experiences and know much of what the church has taught about it. I am curious how others view and determine the accuracy of their interpretations. You should go the the threads about Nephi killing Laban in the terrestrial. The subject has changed to the spiritual, and Gordon I have to commend for his honesty and openness in approaching the subject. Not something I have seen up here in the celestial.

[_jo1952]

Jo, in answer to your last post, the word "natural" to me means everything that exists or can exist, which includes even God if he, in fact, exists. To me, to insist that something is "supernatural" or somehow "beyond nature" is equivalent to admitting that it doesn't exist. There may well be things that exist that we cannot perceive and may never be able to perceive directly, but unless they have a perceivable and measurable impact on us and on reality, we cannot be reasonably obligated to believe in them, or in any way disparaged for not believing in them.

Hi Gunnar!

Thank you. This helps me to understand where you are coming from; and I can put your comments into better perspective. Even though I obviously do believe in God, whom I believe exists everywhere as a spiritual and "supernatural" being, that is my belief. I have no problem that you hold to a different definition of what you require in being able to perceive or measure as an impact on your reality. You should not be disparaged for your beliefs because you do not agree with another's beliefs. Unfortunately this happens. It also happens to me. I hope I have not come across as having disparaged you. If so, then I apologize.

Paul taught that all Jews would be saved. His biggest lament over his Jewish brethren was that they were blinded to Christ's identity. He wanted them to know who Christ was while they were still in the flesh in order that they could experience the same joy he was experiencing in that knowledge. He knew though, that they would miss out on the opportunity to have that joy while they still had their physical body, unless, perchance, they could get past the blindness. I think that all believers are like Paul in this respect.

As for the Bible and other holy scriptures, the more I study them and learn about them and compare that with the empirical, scientific knowledge that has accumulated since the books in the Bible were first written down, and observe the numerous contradictions, failed prophecies and the horrible atrocities documented in it that were supposedly sanctioned or even commanded by God, the more obvious it becomes to me that it is merely another collection of books authored by fallible, sometimes petty and even vicious human beings. It has often been said, even by some who were once devout Christian preachers (Dan Barker, for example) that nothing will turn one into an atheist faster than reading the Bible from cover to cover.

There are many who believe as you (and Dan Barker) do. I can certainly understand why. It is just that due to the understandings which have been revealed to me, I do not see things in the Bible or other Canon the same way that you do.

Blessings my friend,

jo