The Bottom Line

[_Sethbag]

Classic smokescreen. If this method were manifestly reliable, I bet you it wouldn't just be between themselves and God - you'd be trumpeting this from the rooftops. But it's manifestly not reliable, so you'd prefer we not consider the track record of this method at all.

Hardly a smokescreen. Where do you think the scriptures come from in the first place? There are two possibilities. They are made up stories, or people have done EXACTLY what I'm talking about. With that many accounts, you can decide if it is real or not - but they seem very reliable if true.

There are plenty of other "holy" books that have been written, mythologies that have been enshrined by their believers as the words of their deity, etc. The Bible, and indeed the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures, fit in perfectly with this pattern that we see out in the world. They are not special, not unique, not privileged in any way, really, over all the other holy books out there.

I'm not advocating just simply learning the truth. You can believe God is real now (and that is true) and learn about him from the scriptures. No, I'm talking about discovering and knowing the truth for yourself and to know with certainty that God really exists because you've seen him as I have. And I'm happy to discuss this topic with you Sethbag, but for me (and others like me) there is no question there is a God and we absolutely know that you are mistaken and will discover that in time.

Your lack of skepticism is disturbing, to riff on Lord Vader. You are certain in your beliefs, thinking that you know with absolute certainty what you claim to know. And yet you don't have adequate justification for believing as you do. And that is what is dangerous and scary about this sort of faith. When people become hardened in their beliefs and "knowledge", but without justification, then there is real danger when the beliefs they latch onto represent a hazard to themselves or society, because their faith pre-empts any attempts by others to point out the problems with their believes, and forecloses any attempts by themselves to examine the beliefs critically.

If these other people can believe they are getting real truth from God, but they are wrong in that belief, then I need to see a very good reason why I should expect to get different results myself. "Just try it!" isn't a good response to this. Presumably these others just tried it too, and it didn't work.

The truth is there is a God period - everything else follows. Don't put the cart before the horse here.

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but neither you nor any of the other believers I've ever interacted with, either here in this thread, or anywhere else, have ever articulated a convincing argument that a God exists, as well as why your arguments should be accepted as justified and defensible. From what I've seen, "God exists and all else follows" does not follow from the evidence.

He will in his own due time. What do you suppose the end time is about? It is the end of man's separation from God. Eventually the Millenium will arrive and we will have God in our midst.

People have been saying that, literally, for two thousand years. Entire generations of Mormons have lived and died since the founding of the church, convinced that they would see the Return of the King in their lifetimes. "He'll show you, someday when he really does come back!" is like an elementary school playground argument tactic. You may as well threaten not to be my friend anymore.

The methods work just fine. It is how God does it and is the nature of it. You must decide if it is worthwhile to you or not. I personally don't think your current position is all that pleasant and is self-destructive. But I'm sure that will become clear to you in time.

If I were to interpret this literally, I'd have to speculate that there's an entire universe full of Gods, and for every 7 billion of them, maybe 2 or 3 million have figured out how to do it right. The rest keep trying, and keep being convinced that they've got it all right, but they keep failing over and over, because they just haven't figured out the secret like our God has.

[_subgenius]

...Of course each person receiving some kind of prompting has to "decide"

CFR

(emphasis mine)

BUMP for Gunnar

just in case its unclear...Gunnar is proposing that "self-evident" is a "choice".

[_subgenius]

The Bible, and indeed the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures, fit in perfectly with this pattern that we see out in the world.

CFR

[_Drifting]

The Bible, and indeed the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures, fit in perfectly with this pattern that we see out in the world.

CFR

I think you should expect people to respond to CFR's issued by you in the same manner that you respond to CFR's issued to you....

Very, very, very, very, rarely...if indeed at all...

[_PrickKicker]

Ah is that what it is I thought he have some magic button that stops him seeing my posts as he loses his argument every time.

[_Tobin]

There are plenty of other "holy" books that have been written, mythologies that have been enshrined by their believers as the words of their deity, etc. The Bible, and indeed the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures, fit in perfectly with this pattern that we see out in the world. They are not special, not unique, not privileged in any way, really, over all the other holy books out there.

That isn't what I'm talking about.

Your lack of skepticism is disturbing, to riff on Lord Vader. You are certain in your beliefs, thinking that you know with absolute certainty what you claim to know. And yet you don't have adequate justification for believing as you do. And that is what is dangerous and scary about this sort of faith. When people become hardened in their beliefs and "knowledge", but without justification, then there is real danger when the beliefs they latch onto represent a hazard to themselves or society, because their faith pre-empts any attempts by others to point out the problems with their believes, and forecloses any attempts by themselves to examine the beliefs critically.

LOL Wow!!! I and others like me have seen and experienced God and you claim we have no justification for our beliefs. That statement in and of itself demonstrates an unbelievable degree of ignorance.

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but neither you nor any of the other believers I've ever interacted with, either here in this thread, or anywhere else, have ever articulated a convincing argument that a God exists, as well as why your arguments should be accepted as justified and defensible. From what I've seen, "God exists and all else follows" does not follow from the evidence.

Because I and others like me have seen and experienced God. The truth is quite frankly, self-evident.

People have been saying that, literally, for two thousand years. Entire generations of Mormons have lived and died since the founding of the church, convinced that they would see the Return of the King in their lifetimes. "He'll show you, someday when he really does come back!" is like an elementary school playground argument tactic. You may as well threaten not to be my friend anymore.

So what? Since it hasn't happened yet, your view is it is never going to happen? That is narrow and ridiculous. You can not possibly know that and I'm maintaining in time all of God's words will be fulfilled.

If I were to interpret this literally, I'd have to speculate that there's an entire universe full of Gods, and for every 7 billion of them, maybe 2 or 3 million have figured out how to do it right. The rest keep trying, and keep being convinced that they've got it all right, but they keep failing over and over, because they just haven't figured out the secret like our God has.

Again, I don't know where you are getting your numbers from other than you are simply making it up. And I don't know what you mean by "getting it right" either?!? My guesss is ~99.999999% of humanity will be saved and receive some degree of glory. Only a few will foolishly choose perdition and no glory. Why? Are you a son of peridition? I wouldn't recommend it.

[_Tobin]

Themis, you have been asking the same questions and making the same presentations to me about the very same subjects over and over and over again. You do the same thing to everyone else who disagrees with you. You need to get past it and stop putting the blame on others. The truth of the matter is that you don't like the answers you are given, so you pretend that no support for answers have been given. What is worse when putting the burden of proof on others that they have experienced the Holy Ghost, you want them to play the role of the Holy Ghost for you so that you can understand what they are talking about. It's just not going to happen.

Unless you want to discuss a brand new topic, I am not going to continue being dragged into discussing with you what we have already covered.

Jo,

I'd recommend you do that. Themis isn't interested in an honest discussion (or even attempting to comprehend or respond in any meaningful way to what you say). Just be aware that if you blow him off, he'll become a heckler and follow you around from thread to thread making asinine comments which demonstrates exactly what you've noted about him.

[_Albion]

John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the only Son..." Not Abraham, not Isaac or Jacob, not Moses, not Joseph Smith, and certainly not Tobin.

[_Tobin]

John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the only Son..." Not Abraham, not Isaac or Jacob, not Moses, not Joseph Smith, and certainly not Tobin.

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

[_Themis]

Jo,

I'd recommend you do that. Themis isn't interested in an honest discussion (or even attempting to comprehend or respond in any meaningful way to what you say). Just be aware that if you blow him off, he'll become a heckler and follow you around from thread to thread making asinine comments which demonstrates exactly what you've noted about him.

I guess some people don't like others bringing up their inconsistencies. I suppose I can understand why that might make one upset. Sorry about that Tobin. I still like you. I am interested in honest discussion. I may repeat questions that I think have not been really addressed or even understood, as in the case with Jo who mistakenly thought I was asking her to provide evidence/proof she was communicating with the HG. I suppose I may be at fault for the misunderstanding.