Free Will

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_Molok
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Molok »

subgenius wrote:i have seen them before...just have never seen yours...therefore your claim must be taken on faith if it is taken at all.

Not faith, because we have common ground. We have both experienced university, we both know others who have been through it as well. This isn't a question of blind faith. I could upload a scan of my diploma if I had to. If finding God was as simple as digging around through a few empty Evan Williams bottles in the bottom of a drawer, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

That is not what you asked.

Yes, it is. the answer you gave "Because he chose not to" is trying to shut down discussion of my question of why some people get to see God and others don't. Just because you answer my question in the most superficial, banal way possible doesn't mean the case is closed.


Do you feel compelled to prove you exist to everyone?

No, but I'm not trying to dictate the way of life for everyone on earth either, now am I?


What "good reason" do you propose supports God needing/wanting to prove He exists to those who doubt His existence?

Because, allegedly, he really loves me and wants to have a personal relationship with me. Granted, I've never seen any proof of that, but that's how the story goes.

1. He has been manifest to me
(short list)

That isn't a reason to trust him. And remember, this is a being who you can't comprehend. You are in no position to ascribe anything positive or negative to him. Maybe believing in him has given you some vast, fulfilling meaning in life, but for all you know, this being is working to ensure your ultimate destruction. Now, with that in mind, go ahead and give me some reasons to trust such a being.

and a pretty ironic statement about "bronze age mythology" coming form a guy who adopted an australian aboriginal mythological name
(if we make you laugh will you give up all that water?)

The key term was "believes" in bronze age mythology. I certainly don't do that. Also, I've never heard of any Australian frogs, I had more This in mind.
_subgenius
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Re: Free Will

Post by _subgenius »

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:i have seen them before...just have never seen yours...therefore your claim must be taken on faith if it is taken at all.

Not faith, because we have common ground. We have both experienced university, we both know others who have been through it as well. This isn't a question of blind faith. I could upload a scan of my diploma if I had to. If finding God was as simple as digging around through a few empty Evan Williams bottles in the bottom of a drawer, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

nonsense, any "uploaded" diploma would still require "faith" that it was you!
quite a predicament, but skepticism requires skepticism in return.

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:That is not what you asked.

Yes, it is. the answer you gave "Because he chose not to" is trying to shut down discussion of my question of why some people get to see God and others don't. Just because you answer my question in the most superficial, banal way possible doesn't mean the case is closed.

my response was valid, just because you did not appreciate it and refused it does not change that.


Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:Do you feel compelled to prove you exist to everyone?

No, but I'm not trying to dictate the way of life for everyone on earth either, now am I?

perhaps this is your error, i believe your concept of God may be in error.
Nevertheless, if you admit that you do not know His motives then how can you possibly (by what grounds) disregard any possible motive put forth?

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:What "good reason" do you propose supports God needing/wanting to prove He exists to those who doubt His existence?

Because, allegedly, he really loves me and wants to have a personal relationship with me. Granted, I've never seen any proof of that, but that's how the story goes.

all i can say is that if you believed that, you would likely have the answer you seek.

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:1. He has been manifest to me
(short list)

That isn't a reason to trust him. And remember, this is a being who you can't comprehend. You are in no position to ascribe anything positive or negative to him. Maybe believing in him has given you some vast, fulfilling meaning in life, but for all you know, this being is working to ensure your ultimate destruction. Now, with that in mind, go ahead and give me some reasons to trust such a being.

reason already given, you have yet to qualify how it is not a valid reason.
(ironically, you claim He is a being that one can not comprehend, except you claim the ability to do just that)

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:and a pretty ironic statement about "bronze age mythology" coming form a guy who adopted an australian aboriginal mythological name
(if we make you laugh will you give up all that water?)

The key term was "believes" in bronze age mythology. I certainly don't do that. Also, I've never heard of any Australian frogs, I had more This in mind.

ahh..the subtle difference one's choice in spelling can make (and the point of "what you had in mind", is not lost... :lol: )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiddalik
(notice the redirect)
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Molok
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Molok »

subgenius wrote:nonsense, any "uploaded" diploma would still require "faith" that it was you!
quite a predicament, but skepticism requires skepticism in return.

Ok. So believing that I went to college and have a college degree and believing there is a God require the same amount of faith. You are either a troll, or a fool. I don't have time for either.
_subgenius
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Re: Free Will

Post by _subgenius »

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:nonsense, any "uploaded" diploma would still require "faith" that it was you!
quite a predicament, but skepticism requires skepticism in return.

Ok. So believing that I went to college and have a college degree and believing there is a God require the same amount of faith. You are either a troll, or a fool. I don't have time for either.

your concession is duly noted.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Drifting
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Drifting »

Molok wrote:
subgenius wrote:nonsense, any "uploaded" diploma would still require "faith" that it was you!
quite a predicament, but skepticism requires skepticism in return.

Ok...You are either a troll, or a fool.


A troll AND a fool?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_subgenius
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Re: Free Will

Post by _subgenius »

Drifting wrote:A troll AND a fool?

Thanks for the endorsement on his concession :biggrin:

[url=http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26]No personal attacks allowed whatsoever. This includes personal attacks against a person's family members.
No disrespectful communications allowed. Address the ideas, not the person who posts them.[/url]

Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong. -Rousseau

I love it when someone insults me. That means that I don't have to be nice anymore. -Billy Idol
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Mktavish
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Mktavish »

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Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Themis
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Themis »

Mktavish wrote:Unless you want to give us what you think are the good reasons for God to reveal themself.


Perhaps some could give good reasons for God hiding so thoroughly from everyone, and in some cases changing all the evidence to hide(ex Global flood).
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_Molok
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Molok »

subgenius wrote:your concession is duly noted.

Like I said before, you aren't interested in discussion, you're here to shut down discussion, by giving the most banal, superficial answers you can muster. But sure, I happily concede that you are a troll or a fool.
_Molok
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Re: Free Will

Post by _Molok »

Mktavish, this thread is about the christian god, not about whatever vague concept of god you have. Obviously we're just talking past each other at this point.
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