Free Will

[_Themis]

Your category is just a vague Idea looking through rose colored glasses without giving any actual Idea.

Plus what would be improveing the human condition? Less people , more people , Less religion , more religion , More Nazi's , More Jews ... If some superior alien race showed up and made humans behave themselves ?

I suppose they all would be, but then bigger is a very subjective term we are using. I suppose it could be different for each individual, but It's not a question that has been answered for thousands of years, and won't make as much difference as many other questions being answered.

I would still be interested in how you think the statement below is supposed to affect individuality.

For everyone to have equall comprehension of god would put a serious dent in individuality

[Guest]

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[_Themis]

I suppose it does depend on ones concept of god ... But my point was more along the lines of everyone haveing the same comprehension not what that acutally was. And for that to happen imho , would change our existence with regaurds to individuality.

Add edit: And I'm going off of the reality of how humans are ... not some perception of humans through rose colored glasses.

You are still making the same assertion, and I realize it is an opinion, but I am asking how it would cause anyone to lose their individuality.

[Guest]

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[_Themis]

Are you saying its possible to maintain individual perceptions of god and have god reveal themselves to everyone equally? Because what I know of people , the argument of "Well that isn't what my understanding on [blank] is" will eventually surface and probably escalate. Which is what the whole purpose of god revealing themselves equally to everybody was suppose to avoid right? Hence god would have to use their magic powers and change our individual level of understanding and even opinions ... to Acheive what Molok is asking god to do with regaurds to god and all of humanity.

If the equilateral comprehension is insignificant enough to not alter our existence of individuality ... then our we really talking about god? Is there anything that has equilateral comprehension? Breathing is about the closest I can think of.

Like you said this is all based on my oppinion , My Individual perception.

While I would agree that in order for everyone to have the exact same perception of God he would have to change everyone, I don't see that this was the issues brought up by molok or anyone else. He was talking about everyone having good evidence of God's existence, and that it would not affect our free will or individuality by knowing God exists. He also makes a good point that there are better things to wonder about that can make a bigger difference in our lives. Think of science and how in a short time it has changed our lives in major ways, yet we see nothing of this sort from thousands of years of wondering or making claims about God and what she/he/they want.

[Guest]

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[_subgenius]

Think of science and how in a short time it has changed our lives in major ways, yet we see nothing of this sort from thousands of years of wondering or making claims about God and what she/he/they want.

absolutely absurd! Talk about jumping the shark!
Someone has hijacked Themis's account, because this sort of conclusion is beyond the usual ineptitude.

Posts, such as these always assume that science is some sort of existential character that is autonomous and thus does not rely on man for its existence. That Science is somehow required to be referred to in the 3rd person...this mythological attribute given to "science" is all to revealing about those who wave that flag.

First. a proposition that science is merely a derivative of religion is easy to make, since the majority of science to date has been developed by, innovated by, and established by religious people, since religious people were the founders of modern education, etc.. - who had a belief in God and often attributed Him with having influence on their work.
Second, how science has changed our lives?
science has changed nothing in our lives - in recent years or ever.
People, motivated by good or by bad, and natural events like earthquakes are the only things that have changed our lives in recent years.
Science has literally done nothing.

I may well as assert that it has always been Man's God-given desire to improve life on earth for himself and for others has been that has ever "changed" life.

Richard_Feynman probably had it correct - "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts"

You should hear what he has to say here, take 4 minutes and 50 seconds to learn about science from a real scientist.
there are some cliché' assumptions about religion but if you pay attention, you will understand why science and religion are apples and oranges, and better you will understand that someone who shares his position really has no justification nor virtue for being on this forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YltEym9H0x4

[_Themis]

Think of science and how in a short time it has changed our lives in major ways, yet we see nothing of this sort from thousands of years of wondering or making claims about God and what she/he/they want.

absolutely absurd! Talk about jumping the shark!
Someone has hijacked Themis's account, because this sort of conclusion is beyond the usual ineptitude.

Posts, such as these always assume that science is some sort of existential character that is autonomous and thus does not rely on man for its existence. That Science is somehow required to be referred to in the 3rd person...this mythological attribute given to "science" is all to revealing about those who wave that flag.

First. a proposition that science is merely a derivative of religion is easy to make, since the majority of science to date has been developed by, innovated by, and established by religious people, since religious people were the founders of modern education, etc.. - who had a belief in God and often attributed Him with having influence on their work.
Second, how science has changed our lives?
science has changed nothing in our lives - in recent years or ever.
People, motivated by good or by bad, and natural events like earthquakes are the only things that have changed our lives in recent years.
Science has literally done nothing.

I may well as assert that it has always been Man's God-given desire to improve life on earth for himself and for others has been that has ever "changed" life.

Richard_Feynman probably had it correct - "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts"

You should hear what he has to say here, take 4 minutes and 50 seconds to learn about science from a real scientist.
there are some cliché' assumptions about religion but if you pay attention, you will understand why science and religion are apples and oranges, and better you will understand that someone who shares his position really has no justification nor virtue for being on this forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YltEym9H0x4

Subby,

Science is a methodology. It's a way of thinking and evaluating the world around us. Many people who have religious ideas have been great scientists, and yes religion has done things to help make a better or worse world. You admit they are apples and oranges which is true, and why scientific thinking has provided much more for humanity then any other endeavor. One of those is right in front of you. by the way what you quote only compares science with the questions or claims people have been making about the Gods and what they want, not on the many other areas of religion, but then I have enough experience with you to know you do not read for understanding.

[Guest]

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[_subgenius]

Subby,

Science is a methodology. It's a way of thinking and evaluating the world around us. Many people who have religious ideas have been great scientists, and yes religion has done things to help make a better or worse world. You admit they are apples and oranges which is true, and why scientific thinking has provided much more for humanity then any other endeavor. One of those is right in front of you. by the way what you quote only compares science with the questions or claims people have been making about the Gods and what they want, not on the many other areas of religion, but then I have enough experience with you to know you do not read for understanding.

Themmy,
First, you are wrong trying to equate science with technology
Science is not responsible for what is in front of me...man is.
Science is not the creator of all things temporal...it is, as you say, just a method.
For example, if we consider science - for what it is- we know that it is simply a reasoned exploration of stuff aiming to discover stuff.
But what about this amazing computer?
Ever watch James Burke's Connections? We see that technology behaves by a very different "method"...inspiration, innovation, happenstance, deliberation, and often desperation creates more than "science".
The early punch card computers owe more to the pattern cards used in the looms of the textile industry than any laboratory of even the scientific method.
Yes, science reveals knowledge about stuff, but so does chance...and for posts like yours that try to credit science as being responsible for or the equivalence of simply "asking a question" is ridiculous, because as you stated - it is not just about asking a question, it is about HOW you ask that question.
Point being "Science" does nothing and i responsible for even less, and Feynman's quote is eloquent and had it right.