The horse, domesticated animals and tilling the ground

[_Drifting]

are you not familiar with the 2nd Great Awakening of American History and what the collective psyche of the nation, especially that region, was?
Visions and spiritual experiences would have been quite reasonable.

Not just 'reasonable' they were in fact, really rather common. Or, to be more precise, claims of them were really rather common.

[_son of Ishmael]

Using that logic...The Book of Mormon talks about rivers and in fact there are rivers in the Americas, therfore rivers are evidence that the Book of Mormon is true.

you say "using that logic" and then you do not.
But fundamentally, yes, the fact that there are rivers is actually evidence "for"...not against. Not particularly overwhelming evidence, but still a check in the "for" box.

Hey! The Book of Mormon mentions food and there was food in the Americas when the spanish got here so that is a check in the "for" box too. Trees are mentioned and so are hills and the sky is mentioned and I think air is mentioned too. Wow! just spend a little time reading the Book of Mormon and just watch that "for" box just fill up.

Forget stupid things like the horses, olives, wine, steel, honey bees, cattle, oxen, donkeys, goats and wild goats, sheep, swine and elephants, wheat, barley,silk, cimeters, the seven day week. And forget that fact that the Book of Mormon doesn't mention important foods known to ancient America such as chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, and manioc.

[_subgenius]

Hey! The Book of Mormon mentions food and there was food in the Americas when the spanish got here so that is a check in the "for" box too. Trees are mentioned and so are hills and the sky is mentioned and I think air is mentioned too. Wow! just spend a little time reading the Book of Mormon and just watch that "for" box just fill up.

Forget stupid things like the horses, olives, wine, steel, honey bees, cattle, oxen, donkeys, goats and wild goats, sheep, swine and elephants, wheat, barley,silk, cimeters, the seven day week. And forget that fact that the Book of Mormon doesn't mention important foods known to ancient America such as chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, and manioc.

so had there been a few more recipes you would be convinced...great point!
are you sure you understand the difference between evidence for and degrees of certainty? (cuz, honestly, it seems like you do not)

and why are you here again?

[_son of Ishmael]

Hey! The Book of Mormon mentions food and there was food in the Americas when the spanish got here so that is a check in the "for" box too. Trees are mentioned and so are hills and the sky is mentioned and I think air is mentioned too. Wow! just spend a little time reading the Book of Mormon and just watch that "for" box just fill up.

Forget stupid things like the horses, olives, wine, steel, honey bees, cattle, oxen, donkeys, goats and wild goats, sheep, swine and elephants, wheat, barley,silk, cimeters, the seven day week. And forget that fact that the Book of Mormon doesn't mention important foods known to ancient America such as chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, and manioc.

so had there been a few more recipes you would be convinced...great point!
are you sure you understand the difference between evidence for and degrees of certainty? (cuz, honestly, it seems like you do not)

and why are you here again?

If there were no issues with things like horses, olives, wine, steel, honey bees, cattle, oxen, donkeys, goats, wild goats, sheep, swine, elephants, wheat, barley, silk, cimetars, the seven day week, chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, manioc, etc, then believing in the Book of Mormon could really be an act of faith. If the Book of Mormon was evidence neutral or at least mostly evidence neutral, then I think it would be reasonable to say to someone that they have to have faith to believe it. As it stands now, you not only have to have a faith, you have to be willing and able to suspend reason, intellect and common sense.

[Guest]

...

[_bcuzbcuz]

The only fiction I see is the post above. What a bunch of baloney.

Check for yourself. I would suggest FAIR or BYU studies or even Church history. I only presented one account. There are at least three.

[_Tobin]

The only fiction I see is the post above. What a bunch of baloney.

Check for yourself. I would suggest FAIR or BYU studies or even Church history. I only presented one account. There are at least three.

I have, and it is total made-up garbage. It has nothing to do with Church history, other than what you'd like to pretend it does. All you (and others like you) have done is taken something David Whitmer says 50 years later and created some preposterous theory out of it.

[_Drifting]

All you (and others like you) have done is taken something David Whitmer says 50 years later and created some preposterous theory out of it.

Exactly right...

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.



Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

[_bcuzbcuz]

I have, and it is total made-up garbage. It has nothing to do with Church history, other than what you'd like to pretend it does. All you (and others like you) have done is taken something David Whitmer says 50 years later and created some preposterous theory out of it.

Do you accept the Maxwell Institute as a reliable source? Do you accept the Ensign magazine as a reliable source? Do you accept the "History of Joseph Smith, the Prophet by Himself" as a source?

[_Tobin]

I have, and it is total made-up garbage. It has nothing to do with Church history, other than what you'd like to pretend it does. All you (and others like you) have done is taken something David Whitmer says 50 years later and created some preposterous theory out of it.

Do you accept the Maxwell Institute as a reliable source? Do you accept the Ensign magazine as a reliable source? Do you accept the "History of Joseph Smith, the Prophet by Himself" as a source?

Do you consider Dr. Seuss and Green Eggs and Ham a reliable source?

Just because someone puts something up on a website or publishes it does not make it reliable, definitive, or necessarily correct. Just because you happen to create fictions out of a ridiculous statement 50 years later and then add additional information in a way to make it legitimate does not mean it is historical, reasonable, or something I need to waste time on. I've thoroughly looked into this, David Whitmer wasn't associated with these events, it is not consistent with what the mission to Canada was all about, and it is all a bunch of hogwash. You have taken one statement and created a fiction and I don't need to pay attention to people that need to lie and create dubious facts and draw bizarre conclusions that aren't consistent with what really happened.