Sola Gratia

[_Molok]

Sounds like he's just restating the old Greek proverb "God helps those who help themselves", a statement not actually found anywhere in scripture.

[_bcuzbcuz]

“When our wagon gets stuck in the mud, God is much more likely to assist the man who gets out to push than the man who merely raises his voice in prayer—no matter how eloquent the oration.”
― Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Is the notion expressed in this quote by Dieter tantamount to a more direct indictment on those who would consider the "sola gratia" argument valid?

To date God has never once gotten a wagon unstuck all by himself, at least, none that are recorded. I know of more than 20 wagons that people have got unstuck. So far: God ...0, People ....20 and counting.

[_subgenius]

Sounds like he's just restating the old Greek proverb "God helps those who help themselves", a statement not actually found anywhere in scripture.

because the Bible teaches the opposite
Isaiah 25:4 notes that God helps the helpless
although we do know
"God helps those who help themselves!" from Hezekiah 6:1

that being said, Dieter is not sounding like that at all.

[_Drifting]

Sounds like he's just restating the old Greek proverb "God helps those who help themselves", a statement not actually found anywhere in scripture.

because the Bible teaches the opposite
Isaiah 25:4 notes that God helps the helpless
although we do know
"God helps those who help themselves!" from Hezekiah 6:1

that being said, Dieter is not sounding like that at all.

In reality, God doesn't help the helpless, not really.
Look at those helpless starving children that God doesn't help.
Those victims of child abuses, no help for them.
ETC.

You're right in saying though that Dieter is promoting the "don't expect God to help until you do the work yourselves" form of Godly assistance.

[_subgenius]

In reality, God doesn't help the helpless, not really.
Look at those helpless starving children that God doesn't help.

wow, for someone who does nothing for children you sure beat that drum alot....alot.
nevertheless, there is no evidence that God does not help them...just because you disagree with how they may be helped or to what extent does not mean they do not receive a form of help...
for example: you have claimed that you "help" these starving children...and that is likely defined by throwing some pocket change in a tin can on the local liquor store counter when you are checking out your evening's "vitamins".

Those victims of child abuses, no help for them.
ETC.

"physician heal thyself"

You're right in saying though that Dieter is promoting the "don't expect God to help until you do the work yourselves" form of Godly assistance.

[_Drifting]

wow, for someone who does nothing for children...

CFR

nevertheless, there is no evidence that God does not help them...just because you disagree with how they may be helped or to what extent does not mean they do not receive a form of help...

Double negative, nice.
How might God be helping starving children when it is clear He isn't making sure they get fed?

for example: you have claimed that you "help" these starving children...and that is likely defined by throwing some pocket change in a tin can on the local liquor store counter when you are checking out your evening's "vitamins".

Why 'likely'?

[_subgenius]

for example: you have claimed that you "help" these starving children...and that is likely defined by throwing some pocket change in a tin can on the local liquor store counter when you are checking out your evening's "vitamins".

Why 'likely'?

because i am not completely convinced you are old enough to shop on your own.

[_kairos]

well i have seen with my own eyes men and women whose life's wagon was stuck in the mud of alcohol addiction and while alone knowing withdrawl was coming on cried out to God with whatever little faith they had or maybe none at all and were delivered immediately from the withdrawal, the addiction craving and not only did not drink again but helped others out of their addiction. william james' Varieties of religious Experience describes all types of real life dramatic conversions- i call those conversions saved by grace, no wagon pushing involved.
the fact is these types of conversion happen more often than you think. although not related to alcohol i experienced such a conversion myself on jan 6th 1986 and my life was changed forever.

from dieter u's talk it is clear he has never experienced a true dramatic conversion-if he had he would never have given that talk

amazing grace


your mileage may vary

[_PrickKicker]

Gods grace is free to all deluded enough to believe... Except Mormons.

They have to work to earn it.

Then not only do they have to work for it, they have to work for others to get it.

Then not only do they have to work for it and work for others to get it, they have to pay 10% God tax.

Then not only do they have to work for it and work for others to get it and pay 10% God tax, they then have to give offerings.

Then not only do they have to work for it and work for others to get it and pay 10% God tax and have to give offerings, they also have to fund their own recruitment mission to get others to pay into it.

All the while the Org gets wealthier and wealthier until it overthrows governments and rules the world.

All those in favour?



Thank you, the voting has been unanimous.

[_moksha]

You're right in saying though that Dieter is promoting the "don't expect God to help until you do the work yourselves" form of Godly assistance.

He is actually promoting the idea of doing good deeds as needed. President Uchtdorf says we need to be less talk and more cattle (cowboy phrase). Go out and do good deeds and that will help yourself and others.

Vachel Lindsay may have said it as, "Go light on the 'Glory Hallelujahs' and concentrate on the boom, boom, booms".