Brad Hudson's Desire

[_LittleNipper]

Nipper,
Can you show that god does indeed answer prayers? I saw dozens of pray and fast for the Romney campaign blurbs on Facebook the last couple of months. Obviously that didn't help much....

Also, which god answers prayers?

Well, the Lord of all answered my prayer. I prayed that the United States gets the President she deserves. Obviously, God has something in mind.

[_LittleNipper]

It isn't the ACLU or atheists that you should be worried about, it's smart phones and ubiquitous internet access. Those children in small towns are now growing up with Facebook, Twiter, instant messaging, online games, Voip, Ventrillo, Teamspeak, and so on. The have friends and acquaintances though out the world. Many of them spend more time communicating with people via electronics than they do with live people. They are being exposed to the very thing that concerns you, outside cultures and beliefs. Who knows what the next generation will believe, but one thing is certain, parents, schools, religion, governments and geographical environment will have less control over what information they are fed and how they view the outside world.

Actually, I feel that it is on forums such as this that teens can see what people actually feel, believe, and expect and why. This is far more then they are allowed to do in school. A person on this forum (for instance) may read why Mormonism is not considered a Christian belief, and hear that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. They may say they do not believe that, but they are faced with proving it to themselves. The very same is true of evolution. While there are those who will believe anything that is contray to a belief in God, such are faced with the nagging notion that there are many who disagree and have seemingly valid reasons not to believe that there is no God and life could not just have happened on its own, given a million, billion, trillion --- Sundays. So I do witness how God has taken the Internet, exactly as God took the roads of Rome and spread out Jesus Christ right in front of everyone ---- even those who say they are not interested. The atheists and ACLU should be concerned --- as their 50 years of control and manipulation is being deeply compromised.

[_LittleNipper]

I do not believe children should be ignorant. That is what atheists desire when it comes to attitudes surrounding GOD. Does God answer prayer? That would be a very good question for a school teacher to ask and discuss in school.

I have a better idea: God can stay in church, and the government can run the state, and never shall the two meet. Seriously, education in America is on par with third world countries, discussing answers to prayer is a colossal waste of time.

Actually, you are misinformed. The "Church" is the body of believers. They are citizens just like everyone else. Church is not a building with a steeple and a bell and pretty windows. American citizens are suppose to be the boss and the government is the servant of the people and not the other way around. Discussing the Big Bang would seem the waste of time. That is presumed to have occurred Billions of years ago. As such, it cannot be proven or replicated. If such could happen again, it could not be prevented, so exactly what has been gained. Some professor makes a name for himself professing things he never witnessed and cannot influence. This is likely why some kids act the way they do in school --- they see the hypocrisy of trying to replace God with a whole set of beliefs that amount to nothing. If God is nothing, who cares about beliefs that profess to explain where we come from --- because they cannot help anyone get anywhere and tomorrow we all die anyway.

[_Gunnar]

Thanks, LIttle Nipper. Consider me moved.

You've got a ton of stuff packed in that paragraph -- several different ideas in there that each could support it's own thread. So, I suggest taking them one at a time. That way each gets the attention it deserves.

I am an atheist, by which I mean I do not believe in the existence of any god. Which rights do you think I am claiming that I am not willing to extend to others?

Why? Why do you not believe in God? I'm sure He is aware of you. I'm sure you must have prayed at some point or another. So what makes it impossible for you to accept God exists?

Please answer Brad's question, if you think you have a good answer.

[_LittleNipper]

Actually you didn't show anything at all. But you already knew.that.

So what exactly have you shown and proven? But you already knew that, too!

[_LittleNipper]

Please answer Brad's question, if you think you have a good answer.

I have a right to know why anyone would think atheism is a vaild belief, as it is pervasive throughout secular education today, and yet it has not had to prove anything. It is simply allowed to exist without governmental confrontation. Why must I have a good answer? The answers provided by evolutionists and uniformitarians are incomplete at best. They certainly are not "good." Perhaps indifferent is what they are. And if such can be indifferent and incomplete, why cannot Christian answers be indifferent and incomplete? Why is more expected from Christians then from atheists.

[_Res Ipsa]

Thanks, LIttle Nipper. Consider me moved.

You've got a ton of stuff packed in that paragraph -- several different ideas in there that each could support it's own thread. So, I suggest taking them one at a time. That way each gets the attention it deserves.

I am an atheist, by which I mean I do not believe in the existence of any god. Which rights do you think I am claiming that I am not willing to extend to others?

Why? Why do you not believe in God? I'm sure He is aware of you. I'm sure you must have prayed at some point or another. So what makes it impossible for you to accept God exists?

I don't believe in any god because I don't believe in the existence of things without good reason. I've not discovered any good reason to believe in some type of god.

I don't believe in your god because I see no good reason why your claims about god are correct and the claims made by billions of other people about thousands of other gods are incorrect.

Yes, I did pray earlier in my life because that's what I was taught to do by my parents and by the other adults in the church I was raised in. As I became older, read more extensively, and accumulated knowledge, I came to realize there was no good reason to believe in the existence of any god.

I don't believe that something exists just because it could possibly exist. I am interested in what is real --- not what can be imagined.

[_Res Ipsa]

I have a right to know why anyone would think atheism is a vaild belief, as it is pervasive throughout secular education today, and yet it has not had to prove anything. It is simply allowed to exist without governmental confrontation. Why must I have a good answer? The answers provided by evolutionists and uniformitarians are incomplete at best. They certainly are not "good." Perhaps indifferent is what they are. And if such can be indifferent and incomplete, why cannot Christian answers be indifferent and incomplete? Why is more expected from Christians then from atheists.

You seem to suffer from some pretty typical misunderstandings of atheism. Not believing in something isn't belief. It's the absence of belief. Not eating isn't eating. Not swimming isn't swimming. Not living isn't living. Not believing isn't believing. I don't have to justify not believing in the existence of anything. If you want to assert that something exists, including god, it is you who needs to provide a valid explanation. Do you really think I can assert the existence of Allah and then demand that you provide a valid reason for not believing in him?

You seem to think it's a good idea to give government the power to cram whatever religion it chooses down your children's throats. For the life of me, I can't understand why conservative Christians, who think government is the worst thing since Satan, want to give it any power whatsoever over religion. Atheism is not pervasive in schools today (at least in the U.S.) Students are not taught that there is no god. And if mine were taught that, I'd raise holy hell. Public schools are government schools, and as such should remain neutral on religion. I don't want the government cramming Christianity down my children's throat any more than you would want public schools in Utah to cram Mormonism down your children's throat. Or Islam, if muslims gained control over your local school board. If you want religious indoctrination to be part of your children's formal education, you have the right them to a religious school of your particular flavor of religion or to homeschool.

So, I'm not asserting the right to have the government teach public school children that there is no god. I'm asserting exactly the same right that lots and lots of Christians do: to keep the government out of the business of religious indoctrination.

Are there any other special rights that you claim I am asserting?

[Guest]

I have a right to know why anyone would think atheism is a vaild belief. . .

So, who is denying you that right? Atheists are not at all reluctant to explain why they think non-belief in God is valid and reasonable.

. . .as it is pervasive throughout secular education today, and yet it has not had to prove anything.

Secular education is simply education that does not make direct reference to God or religion, and it includes the information we need to live our daily lives, perform our jobs, and clothe and feed ourselves. It is (or should be) entirely neutral about the question about whether or not God exists. The fact that some of the providers of secular education also happen to be Atheists has no bearing on its usefulness and value. We need it whether or not there is a God or gods.

It is simply allowed to exist without governmental confrontation.

Are you saying or implying that atheism should not be allowed to exist without governmental confrontation? That would be a clear violation of the first amendment!

Why must I have a good answer?

No one can force you to have a good answer, but unless you have a good answer, it would be extremely foolish of you to expect anyone to take you seriously, and even more foolish for anyone to take you seriously.

The answers provided by evolutionists and uniformitarians are incomplete at best. They certainly are not "good." Perhaps indifferent is what they are. And if such can be indifferent and incomplete, why cannot Christian answers be indifferent and incomplete? Why is more expected from Christians then from atheists.

1. Even the vast majority of Christian biologists and geologists accept the fact of evolution and the 4.5 billion year age of the earth, and that the Genesis account of creation need not be and should not be taken absolutely literally. The evidence for that to which we have already referred you is far, far better and more conclusive than you are ever likely to admit. It is foolish to believe that the Bible was ever intended to be a science textbook.

2. If you understand anything about science and the scientific process at all, you know that however "good" the answers provided by science are and become, they will always be in some sense incomplete. Scientists have the intellectual and moral obligation to continually question and improve upon what they know or think they know. This in no way implies "indifference" or precludes their answers from being very good and useful indeed.

3. Are you admitting now that Christian answers are "indifferent and incomplete?" If so, why do you deserve more credibility than non-Christians?

4. Who says that more is expected from Christians than from atheists, and why should Christians expect anything less from themselves than anyone else does?

[_Gunnar]

I have a right to know why anyone would think atheism is a vaild belief, as it is pervasive throughout secular education today, and yet it has not had to prove anything. It is simply allowed to exist without governmental confrontation. Why must I have a good answer? The answers provided by evolutionists and uniformitarians are incomplete at best. They certainly are not "good." Perhaps indifferent is what they are. And if such can be indifferent and incomplete, why cannot Christian answers be indifferent and incomplete? Why is more expected from Christians then from atheists.

You seem to suffer from some pretty typical misunderstandings of atheism. Not believing in something isn't belief. It's the absence of belief. Not eating isn't eating. Not swimming isn't swimming. Not living isn't living. Not believing isn't believing. I don't have to justify not believing in the existence of anything. If you want to assert that something exists, including god, it is you who needs to provide a valid explanation. Do you really think I can assert the existence of Allah and then demand that you provide a valid reason for not believing in him?

You seem to think it's a good idea to give government the power to cram whatever religion it chooses down your children's throats. For the life of me, I can't understand why conservative Christians, who think government is the worst thing since Satan, want to give it any power whatsoever over religion. Atheism is not pervasive in schools today (at least in the U.S.) Students are not taught that there is no god. And if mine were taught that, I'd raise holy hell. Public schools are government schools, and as such should remain neutral on religion. I don't want the government cramming Christianity down my children's throat any more than you would want public schools in Utah to cram Mormonism down your children's throat. Or Islam, if muslims gained control over your local school board. If you want religious indoctrination to be part of your children's formal education, you have the right them to a religious school of your particular flavor of religion or to homeschool.

So, I'm not asserting the right to have the government teach public school children that there is no god. I'm asserting exactly the same right that lots and lots of Christians do: to keep the government out of the business of religious indoctrination.

Are there any other special rights that you claim I am asserting?

Very well said!

I am interested in what is real --- not what can be imagined.

I am sometimes almost as interested in what can be imagined as in what is real. Creative imagination can be great driver of discovery and progress and lead to revealing or creating things previously unknown. It can also be quite entertaining sometimes.