Brad Hudson's Desire

[_LittleNipper]

Why? Why do you not believe in God? I'm sure He is aware of you. I'm sure you must have prayed at some point or another. So what makes it impossible for you to accept God exists?

I don't believe in any god because I don't believe in the existence of things without good reason. I've not discovered any good reason to believe in some type of god.

I don't believe in your god because I see no good reason why your claims about god are correct and the claims made by billions of other people about thousands of other gods are incorrect.

Yes, I did pray earlier in my life because that's what I was taught to do by my parents and by the other adults in the church I was raised in. As I became older, read more extensively, and accumulated knowledge, I came to realize there was no good reason to believe in the existence of any god.

I don't believe that something exists just because it could possibly exist. I am interested in what is real --- not what can be imagined.

Well, for one, the God I worship is perfect and expects me to be perfect. The reality is that sin prevents me from perfection. As a result, the Lord, covered my imperfections with His perfection and died (sacraficing His perfection) for me. All He expects is that I willingly accept His payment for my sin. I know that there are others who believe in a god or gods who expect man to do the best they can and if man's good deeds outweigh the bad that person will reach heaven. The problem I see is that for every good deed I can see man making about 10 mistakes. I know of people who were Mormons, Catholics, JW's, Muslims, Hindu, Atheists, etc., who have become Born-again Christians. They are not perfect now, or happy all the time but they now have real peace and are not worried about tomorrow with regards to their eternity. You say you prayed, but you do not say if you felt comfort afterwards. I say the proof is in the pudding. Societies such as Roam had gods and they worshipped them by having men fight to the death in the arena. Hindi worship many gods by having a rigid caste system. Their poor are poor because they need to be, and the rich are rich because they are choosen. My father was a Roman Catholic and did everything the nuns and priests wanted him to do ------ but found that a personal relationship with God was not something he was ever introduced to while doing penitence the "Church" required. Then he found the biblical Jesus and his motivation changed. Sorry, I ramble, but I do worry that you are lost.

[Guest]

I have a right to know why anyone would think atheism is a vaild belief. . .

So, who is denying you that right? Atheists are not at all reluctant to explain why they think non-belief in God is valid and reasonable.

. . .as it is pervasive throughout secular education today, and yet it has not had to prove anything.

Secular education is simply education that does not make direct reference to God or religion, and it includes the information we need to live our daily lives, perform our jobs, and clothe and feed ourselves. It is (or should be) entirely neutral about the question about whether or not God exists. The fact that some of the providers of secular education also happen to be Atheists has no bearing on its usefulness and value. We need it whether or not there is a God or gods.

It is simply allowed to exist without governmental confrontation.

Are you saying or implying that atheism should not be allowed to exist without governmental confrontation? That would be a clear violation of the first amendment!

Why must I have a good answer?

No one can force you to have a good answer, but unless you have a good answer, it would be extremely foolish of you to expect anyone to take you seriously, and even more foolish for anyone to take you seriously.

The answers provided by evolutionists and uniformitarians are incomplete at best. They certainly are not "good." Perhaps indifferent is what they are. And if such can be indifferent and incomplete, why cannot Christian answers be indifferent and incomplete? Why is more expected from Christians then from atheists.

1. Even the vast majority of Christian biologists and geologists accept the fact of evolution and the 4.5 billion year age of the earth, and that the Genesis account of creation need not be and should not be taken absolutely literally. The evidence for that to which we have already referred you is far, far better and more conclusive than you are ever likely to admit. It is foolish to believe that the Bible was ever intended to be a science textbook.

2. If you understand anything about science and the scientific process at all, you know that however "good" the answers provided by science are and become, they will always be in some sense incomplete. Scientists have the intellectual and moral obligation to continually question and improve upon what they know or think they know. This in no way implies "indifference" or precludes their answers from being very good and useful indeed.

3. Are you admitting now that Christian answers are "indifferent and incomplete?" If so, why do you deserve more credibility than non-Christians?

4. Who says that more is expected from Christians than from atheists, and why should Christians expect anything less from themselves than anyone else does?

The vast majority of people classifying themselves as Christian are not Born-again, they attend a "church." Born-again Christians are the ones who remind the secularists of the holes in their theories. Christians are willing to consider that they may not have everything exactly correct (they are not perfect). This does not seem to be the ideal for a person who accepts natural processes. I do not see Creationism or Intelligent Design getting a voice in Public schools, but perhaps that is changing?

[_SteelHead]

I demand that all American school children be taught about the Orixas, Olodumare, and the Yoruba traditions about the creation. Exu has a right to as much time in the classroom as Jehova/Jesus.

[_Res Ipsa]

Well, for one, the God I worship is perfect and expects me to be perfect. The reality is that sin prevents me from perfection. As a result, the Lord, covered my imperfections with His perfection and died (sacraficing His perfection) for me. All He expects is that I willingly accept His payment for my sin. I know that there are others who believe in a god or gods who expect man to do the best they can and if man's good deeds outweigh the bad that person will reach heaven. The problem I see is that for every good deed I can see man making about 10 mistakes. I know of people who were Mormons, Catholics, JW's, Muslims, Hindu, Atheists, etc., who have become Born-again Christians. They are not perfect now, or happy all the time but they now have real peace and are not worried about tomorrow with regards to their eternity. You say you prayed, but you do not say if you felt comfort afterwards. I say the proof is in the pudding. Societies such as Roam had gods and they worshipped them by having men fight to the death in the arena. Hindi worship many gods by having a rigid caste system. Their poor are poor because they need to be, and the rich are rich because they are choosen. My father was a Roman Catholic and did everything the nuns and priests wanted him to do ------ but found that a personal relationship with God was not something he was ever introduced to while doing penitence the "Church" required. Then he found the biblical Jesus and his motivation changed. Sorry, I ramble, but I do worry that you are lost.

Well, you do kind of ramble, but that's okay. It does create a problem for me in that, like your OP, this paragraph has multiple sentences, each of which we could easily spend a thread on. So if my responses seem a little superficial, it's just because I'm trying to be responsive to everything you wrote.

You've chosen your god. I can understand completely how, having chosen your god, you view things the way you do. All I see you doing is making judgments about other people's religion from within the framework of your own. None of that, however, gives me any reason to believe that your god, or anyone else's, is real. I understand that none of the other religions make sense to you. In just the same way, yours doesn't make sense to me.

I've felt comfort in my life following many activities. My own experience is that the act of unburdening to anyone or anything -- real or imaginary -- induces a feeling of comfort and peacefulness. Buddhism is a great example. Any kind of meditation is another. The act of letting go, of worries, concerns, fears, sins, etc., seems to be comforting for humans. Nothing about the experience leads me to conclude that the comfort comes from outside the human brain.

From your worldview, I am lost. I'm sorry if that causes you worry or pain.

[_Res Ipsa]

The vast majority of people classifying as Christian are not Born-again, they attend a "church." The very vast majority od Born-again Christians are the very ones who remind the secularists of the holes in their theories. Christians are willing to consider that they may not have everything exactly correct (they are not perfect). This does not seem to be the ideal for a person who accepts natural processes. I do not see Creationism or Intellegent Design getting a voice in Public schools, but perhaps that is changing?

This is a common misunderstanding that many born agains have about science. The scientific method does not claim to deliver perfect results. One of the strengths of the method is the understanding that even the best of methods may deliver incorrect results. The scientific method allows for this "imperfection," by requiring the changing of prior conclusions when mandated by new or different data. You don't have tell us about the "holes." We know where the holes are. You fill them with goddidit. We fill them with, I don't know, but we're trying to figure that out.

My beef with many creationists is that they exaggerate the existence of the holes or, in many cases, simply make up holes that aren't there.

Creationism and Intelligent design aren't in the science classrooms in public schools because they are, in fact, christian religious indoctrination dishonestly disguised to look like science. Put 'em in a comparative religion class or a class about how different religions through time and around the world have explained how the world was created or designed, and I'm fine with it.

[_Res Ipsa]

Very well said!

I am interested in what is real --- not what can be imagined.

I am sometimes almost as interested in what can be imagined as in what is real. Creative imagination can be great driver of discovery and progress and lead to revealing or creating things previously unknown. It can also be quite entertaining sometimes.

Very good point. I agree. I should have prefaced what I said by something like "when discussing whether there is a god......."

Thanks.

[_Fence Sitter]

Actually, I feel that it is on forums such as this that teens can see what people actually feel, believe, and expect and why. This is far more then they are allowed to do in school. A person on this forum (for instance) may read why Mormonism is not considered a Christian belief, and hear that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. They may say they do not believe that, but they are faced with proving it to themselves. The very same is true of evolution. While there are those who will believe anything that is contray to a belief in God, such are faced with the nagging notion that there are many who disagree and have seemingly valid reasons not to believe that there is no God and life could not just have happened on its own, given a million, billion, trillion --- Sundays. So I do witness how God has taken the Internet, exactly as God took the roads of Rome and spread out Jesus Christ right in front of everyone ---- even those who say they are not interested. The atheists and ACLU should be concerned --- as their 50 years of control and manipulation is being deeply compromised.

If what you are saying were true we would see trends toward belief and the downfall of scientific theories that conflict with your personal view of God, when exactly the opposite is happening.

Do you also witness how that same God is using that same internet to spread beliefs contrary to yours? Because there is a lot more of that going on than what supports your views.

As a side note I can't help noticing the irony of someone using technology to argue against one of the most scientifically solid theories around.

[_Res Ipsa]

I believe in America, that atheists deserve no additional rights, that they do not wish extend to others. And I do understand that broad is the way that leads to destruction but the way that leads to the Lord is very narrow. I also realize that what many imagine to be pure coincidences are actually additional proofs that God exists. I do not believe all beliefs are of equal validity. Some are very harmful to children, one's mental and physical health, and detrimental to learning to be a rational thinker (which is achived by considering various avenues and their ultimate effects and not just one train of thought). To that regard, the public school system of the United States has proven to be a dismal failure everywhere government has clamped down on thoughts of God. In small towns and communities outside the prying eyes of the ACLU, children are more thoughtful ( on par with general education prior to 1963). As a result, there are TODAY seemingly educated individuals who equate God with a man who saws a lady in half and sticks her back together. I never witnessed God doing such physically. God makes himself known by changing lives from the inside out. He is more subtle when He saws a person in half and makes a NEW creature.

I thought it might be interesting to try write what you said in your OP from my point of view. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Let's give it a spin.

I believe in America. I believe in the right of citizens to the free exercise of religion. I believe that the free exercise of religion is impossible if the government is given the power to indoctrinate citizens, especially children, with religious beliefs. I believe that allowing government to have the power to religiously indoctrinate makes for bad government and for bad religion.

As an atheist, I do not claim any special rights. The right to be free from religious indoctrination by the government applies to everyone. Christians have the right not to have the government indoctrinate their children in Islam. Muslims have the right not to have their children indoctrinated in Hinduism.

I also understand that the human brain is bad at understanding probability and coincidence, and that many people attribute to their god events due to random chance and coincidence.

I believe that all beliefs are not of equal validity, and that some are very harmful to children, one's mental and physical health, and detrimental to learning to be a rational thinker (which is achieved by learning to evaluate which ideas are helpful and which are harmful through the collection and evaluation of evidence.)

I believe that concluding that the quality of education in the U.S. has anything to do with preventing the government from religiously indoctrinating children commits the classic logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

I believe that any explanation that relies on the supernatural is as valid as any other. All are magic -- the belief that someone or something can violate the laws of physics by an unexplainable means. The magic of Harry Potter is the same as the magic of the shaman is the same as the magic of turning water into wine as the magic of flooding the entire earth within the last 6000 years. All such magic is equally valid as an explanation -- with a validity of zero.

[_LittleNipper]

I demand that all American school children be taught about the Orixas, Olodumare, and the Yoruba traditions about the creation. Exu has a right to as much time in the classroom as Jehova/Jesus.

Such traditions had nothing to do with the formation of traditions that established the United States. They didn't establish our laws, education, the Declaration of Independence. And our Christions values and traditions were already in place and removed by people who hated them. To put them back in place would not be unreasonable. To put things in place that are historic to Puerto Rico or Africa would not be embracing our history that fomulated our values we once fought for and held dear.

[_SteelHead]

Such traditions had nothing to do with the formation of traditions that established the United States. They didn't establish our laws, education, the Declaration of Independence. And our Christions values and traditions were already in place and removed by people who hated them. To put them back in place would not be unreasonable. To put things in place that are historic to Puerto Rico or Africa would not be embracing our history that fomulated our values we once fought for and held dear.

What does that matter? Why should your Christian traditions be given opportunity in a public forum and my Yoruba traditions not?