Hello jo
>>>Joseph Smith taught ....<<<
As far as we know Moses never taught any of the secrets of the universe even though God had ample opportunity to fill him in on any secrets he wanted to. None of the many prophets who followed him taught the secrets of the universe as far as we know. Jesus spoke in parables when explaining the SOTU. In relying on what Joseph Smith taught, your actually claiming that in the 1830's God decided to give humanity the SOTU, and since the secrets revealed by Joseph Smith are unique, he chose to only give these secrets to Joseph Smith.
More Thoughts on Reincarnation
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_sleepyhead
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Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
May all your naps be joyous occasions.
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_jo1952
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Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
sleepyhead wrote:Hello jo
>>>Joseph Smith taught ....<<<
As far as we know Moses never taught any of the secrets of the universe even though God had ample opportunity to fill him in on any secrets he wanted to. None of the many prophets who followed him taught the secrets of the universe as far as we know. Jesus spoke in parables when explaining the SOTU. In relying on what Joseph Smith taught, your actually claiming that in the 1830's God decided to give humanity the SOTU, and since the secrets revealed by Joseph Smith are unique, he chose to only give these secrets to Joseph Smith.
Hi Sleepyhead!
We do not know everything that was taught to either the Prophets or to the ancient Apostles. In fact, Daniel did not understand what had been revealed to him which God instructed him to write down anyway. God told Daniel that the meaning of what He had Daniel record would be revealed later. Since it was written, what Daniel recorded HAS become understood.
Meanwhile, however, there ARE remnants of various groups, including both Jews and Christians, who have believed in the secrets which were also revealed to Joseph. They have even more detail. Their traditions and teachings remained hidden in ways which God uses in order to allow His purposes to continue. I do believe more was revealed to Joseph than he recorded. It is also very reasonable to believe that additional Truths were given to Joseph which had not yet been revealed to other prophets in our Earth's age, as this would be in line with New Testament prophecy concerning the end times of our world as we know it. God's Spirit is being poured out even more than before. Those who receive these parts of Truth will not only be sons and daughters (believers), they will also be revealed to those who do not serve God; as well as through dreams of old men, etc. As such, these revelations will not be coming to mankind in the ways we are accustomed to.
Even so, I believe that each spirit goes through its own personal journey as described in the Book of Revelation. Thus, the Revelation is both allegorical and literal for both the individual spirit, as well as for the physical earth and those who are still on the earth in a physical body when the final events transpire. In this way, there are individual spirits who have already experienced their resurrection into eternal life whenever they have evolved in their journey to that point where perfect unity with God unfolds. Other spirits continue to receive physical bodies as their journey progresses (or digresses) toward (or away from) perfect unity with God.
Blessings,
jo
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_Gaia
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Re: Reincarnation- Multiple Mortal Probations
ON MULTIPLE MORTAL PROBATIONS -- Mormon "Reincarnation"
By Gaia_d@yahoo.com
Hello Everyone!
I noticed the discussion on Reincarnation, and thought perhaps some might be interested to hear what early LDS leaders had to say on a related subject which (up until approx 1899) was called "Multiple Probations", -- a doctrine that certainly sounds like (a version of) Reincarnation.
Although Joseph Smith originally called "Transmigration of "Souls" a "doctrine of devils", there is interesting evidence that he changed his mind -- very possibly around the time and as a result of his study of the Kabbalah (the Jewish mystical system), from which he seems to have been inspired of several doctrines, including plurality of Gods, Heavenly Mother, and eternal progression.
Lorenzo Snow indicated that his sister, Eliza R Snow Smith, believed in the doctrine of Multiple Mortal Probations, and received it from her (polygamous) husband, Joseph the Prophet. Prescendia Huntington Buell Kimball, another of Joseph Smith's plural wives, also testified that Joseph changed his beliefs regarding Reincarnation – or Multiple Probations.
(Lorenzo Snow statement, 8 June 1889, and statement of "Aunt Presecendia Kimball", 30 Sept 1883, both in Orson F Whitney diary, LDS archives, with photocopy in Lee Library and Marriot Library.)
"When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball's old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again." (Journal of Discourses Vol 1; Page 275.)
The sons of perdition, according to Brigham Young, will have to begin their progression all over again and to get back to where we are now will take "Myriads of years."
Brigham Young said of Adam: "When Father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body...He helped make and organize this world." JD 1:50
He further quoted Adam as saying:
"I once dwelt on an earth something like this IN A MORTAL STATE, I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there shall be no end."
(Deseret News; June 18, 1873; Page 308.)
"Extract from the Journal of Heber C. Kimball," Times and Seasons 2 (1841); 6 (1845)
EXTRACTS FROM THE JOURNAL OF HEBER C. KIMBALL
"Here, we are as strangers in a strange land, and those who are too proud or obstinate to look up and read the directions so plainly written upon the guide board, which has been set by a Father's loving hand, ...... will see their mistake when too late to retrace their steps and will have to pass through another probation."
{www.math.BYU.edu/~smithw/LDS/LDS/Early-Saints/HCKimball.html)
From a talk by Heber C. Kimball from the stand of the tabernacle in the presence of President Brigham Young:
"If you do not cultivate yourselves, and cultivate your spirits in this state of existence, it is just as true as there is a God that liveth, you will have to go into another state of existence, and bring your spirits into subjection there. Now you may reflect upon it, you never will obtain your resurrected bodies, until you bring your spirits into subjection. I am not talking to this earthly house of mine, neither am I talking to your bodies, but I am speaking to your spirits.
I am not talking as to people who are not in the house. Are not your spirits in the house? Are not your bodies your houses, your tabernacles or temples and places for your spirits? Look at it; reflect upon it. If you keep your spirits trained according to the wisdom and fear of God, you will attain to the salvation of both body and spirit. I ask, then, if it is your spirits that must be brought into subjection? It is; and if you do not do that in these bodies, you will have to go into another estate to do it.
You have got to train yourselves according to the law of God, or you will never obtain your resurrected bodies."
(Journal of Discourses: Vol. 1, Heber C. Kimball 1852/11/14, pg. 356)
Heber again:
"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. But suppose that I do not improve my time today, I wake up tomorrow and find myself in the rear; and then, if I do not improve upon that day, and again lay down to sleep, on awaking, I find myself still in the rear. This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection.[Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, depending on what you earned.] They are days' labors, and it is for us to be faithful today, tomorrow, and every day."
(Journal of Discourses: Vol. 4, Heber C. Kimball, 1857/05/3, pg. 329)
In the Wilford Woodruff Journal, President Woodruff records Heber's statement:
"I believe in multiple probations.”
Heber, Brigham. and other 19th century prophets expanded on this teaching in many talks recorded in the Journal of Discourses and elsewhere.
This doctrine seems to have been associated with another doctrine -- that of advancement within and between Kingdoms.
Brigham Young said on Aug 5, 1855:
"Those consigned to the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom. But it would be a slow progress."
Around the close of the 1800's, LDS authorities began "pulling back" from some of these more controversial doctrines, including Adam-God and "Multiple Mortal Probations" -- some say, to make Mormonism more palatable to mainstream Christiainity) and they were no longer taught from the pulpit.
This doctrine (along with other controversial doctrines, such as “Adam-God”) was no longer taught publically after about 1898, when George Q. Cannon gave a talk before the first Sunday School Conference entitled "Things which Should not be Taught in Sunday School." In this talk Cannon says he thinks it unwise to advocate the Adam God Doctrine, Multiple Probations, and certain other teachings formerly taught from the stand.
Talmage presents the last vestige of these teachings in the 1st Edition of Articles of Faith in 1899 :
"Advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." (Articles of Faith, 1st edition) This sentence was edited out in the 11th (1919) edition: "As to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation." (Articles of Faith, 12th edition)
For more on any of this, please see:
http://www.mormonscience.org/Public/Mai ... ations.htm
http://www.mormonscience.org/Public/Art ... 0Lives.htm
I hope someone finds that helpful/ interesting!
Blessings ~ Gaia
By Gaia_d@yahoo.com
Hello Everyone!
I noticed the discussion on Reincarnation, and thought perhaps some might be interested to hear what early LDS leaders had to say on a related subject which (up until approx 1899) was called "Multiple Probations", -- a doctrine that certainly sounds like (a version of) Reincarnation.
Although Joseph Smith originally called "Transmigration of "Souls" a "doctrine of devils", there is interesting evidence that he changed his mind -- very possibly around the time and as a result of his study of the Kabbalah (the Jewish mystical system), from which he seems to have been inspired of several doctrines, including plurality of Gods, Heavenly Mother, and eternal progression.
Lorenzo Snow indicated that his sister, Eliza R Snow Smith, believed in the doctrine of Multiple Mortal Probations, and received it from her (polygamous) husband, Joseph the Prophet. Prescendia Huntington Buell Kimball, another of Joseph Smith's plural wives, also testified that Joseph changed his beliefs regarding Reincarnation – or Multiple Probations.
(Lorenzo Snow statement, 8 June 1889, and statement of "Aunt Presecendia Kimball", 30 Sept 1883, both in Orson F Whitney diary, LDS archives, with photocopy in Lee Library and Marriot Library.)
"When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball's old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again." (Journal of Discourses Vol 1; Page 275.)
The sons of perdition, according to Brigham Young, will have to begin their progression all over again and to get back to where we are now will take "Myriads of years."
Brigham Young said of Adam: "When Father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body...He helped make and organize this world." JD 1:50
He further quoted Adam as saying:
"I once dwelt on an earth something like this IN A MORTAL STATE, I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there shall be no end."
(Deseret News; June 18, 1873; Page 308.)
"Extract from the Journal of Heber C. Kimball," Times and Seasons 2 (1841); 6 (1845)
EXTRACTS FROM THE JOURNAL OF HEBER C. KIMBALL
"Here, we are as strangers in a strange land, and those who are too proud or obstinate to look up and read the directions so plainly written upon the guide board, which has been set by a Father's loving hand, ...... will see their mistake when too late to retrace their steps and will have to pass through another probation."
{www.math.BYU.edu/~smithw/LDS/LDS/Early-Saints/HCKimball.html)
From a talk by Heber C. Kimball from the stand of the tabernacle in the presence of President Brigham Young:
"If you do not cultivate yourselves, and cultivate your spirits in this state of existence, it is just as true as there is a God that liveth, you will have to go into another state of existence, and bring your spirits into subjection there. Now you may reflect upon it, you never will obtain your resurrected bodies, until you bring your spirits into subjection. I am not talking to this earthly house of mine, neither am I talking to your bodies, but I am speaking to your spirits.
I am not talking as to people who are not in the house. Are not your spirits in the house? Are not your bodies your houses, your tabernacles or temples and places for your spirits? Look at it; reflect upon it. If you keep your spirits trained according to the wisdom and fear of God, you will attain to the salvation of both body and spirit. I ask, then, if it is your spirits that must be brought into subjection? It is; and if you do not do that in these bodies, you will have to go into another estate to do it.
You have got to train yourselves according to the law of God, or you will never obtain your resurrected bodies."
(Journal of Discourses: Vol. 1, Heber C. Kimball 1852/11/14, pg. 356)
Heber again:
"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. But suppose that I do not improve my time today, I wake up tomorrow and find myself in the rear; and then, if I do not improve upon that day, and again lay down to sleep, on awaking, I find myself still in the rear. This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection.[Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial, depending on what you earned.] They are days' labors, and it is for us to be faithful today, tomorrow, and every day."
(Journal of Discourses: Vol. 4, Heber C. Kimball, 1857/05/3, pg. 329)
In the Wilford Woodruff Journal, President Woodruff records Heber's statement:
"I believe in multiple probations.”
Heber, Brigham. and other 19th century prophets expanded on this teaching in many talks recorded in the Journal of Discourses and elsewhere.
This doctrine seems to have been associated with another doctrine -- that of advancement within and between Kingdoms.
Brigham Young said on Aug 5, 1855:
"Those consigned to the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom. But it would be a slow progress."
Around the close of the 1800's, LDS authorities began "pulling back" from some of these more controversial doctrines, including Adam-God and "Multiple Mortal Probations" -- some say, to make Mormonism more palatable to mainstream Christiainity) and they were no longer taught from the pulpit.
This doctrine (along with other controversial doctrines, such as “Adam-God”) was no longer taught publically after about 1898, when George Q. Cannon gave a talk before the first Sunday School Conference entitled "Things which Should not be Taught in Sunday School." In this talk Cannon says he thinks it unwise to advocate the Adam God Doctrine, Multiple Probations, and certain other teachings formerly taught from the stand.
Talmage presents the last vestige of these teachings in the 1st Edition of Articles of Faith in 1899 :
"Advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." (Articles of Faith, 1st edition) This sentence was edited out in the 11th (1919) edition: "As to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation." (Articles of Faith, 12th edition)
For more on any of this, please see:
http://www.mormonscience.org/Public/Mai ... ations.htm
http://www.mormonscience.org/Public/Art ... 0Lives.htm
I hope someone finds that helpful/ interesting!
Blessings ~ Gaia
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_Fence Sitter
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm
Re: Reincarnation- Multiple Mortal Probations
Gaia wrote: Snip
I hope someone finds that helpful/ interesting!
Blessings ~ Gaia
I found it very interesting and I hope you will post more often.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
Thank you, Gaia!
There are some very interesting studies done by non-LDS Believers regarding reincarnation as well. Many Early Church Fathers also believed in reincarnation.
Although there are many, many more, here are some links I hope readers will choose to study and ponder.
From the Christian point of view:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html
http://www.iisis.net/index.php?page=sem ... y&hl=en_US
From the Jewish point of view:
http://www.blavatsky.net/newsletters/re ... udaism.htm
Blessings,
jo
There are some very interesting studies done by non-LDS Believers regarding reincarnation as well. Many Early Church Fathers also believed in reincarnation.
Although there are many, many more, here are some links I hope readers will choose to study and ponder.
From the Christian point of view:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html
http://www.iisis.net/index.php?page=sem ... y&hl=en_US
From the Jewish point of view:
http://www.blavatsky.net/newsletters/re ... udaism.htm
Blessings,
jo
-
_sleepyhead
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:44 pm
Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
Hello,
The reason I believe reincarnation is better than the traditional belief of heaven/hell is that we view life as primarily another learning experience while the traditional belief views it as primarily a test.
The various sects of Christianity believe you only come to earth once, and then based on some criteria of what you said/did/believed your entire future is determined. Naturally these sects each provide some sort of edge for their adherants that others don't have. For Catholics it's confession, for evangelicals it's accepting Jesus as their saviour, and for Mormons it's temple stuff.
Reincarnationists see each day as a new opportunity to discover why we are in this present life and to grow from our experiences.
The reason I believe reincarnation is better than the traditional belief of heaven/hell is that we view life as primarily another learning experience while the traditional belief views it as primarily a test.
The various sects of Christianity believe you only come to earth once, and then based on some criteria of what you said/did/believed your entire future is determined. Naturally these sects each provide some sort of edge for their adherants that others don't have. For Catholics it's confession, for evangelicals it's accepting Jesus as their saviour, and for Mormons it's temple stuff.
Reincarnationists see each day as a new opportunity to discover why we are in this present life and to grow from our experiences.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.
-
_Gaia
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:02 pm
Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
It also offers some much better answers to questions like, "Why is one person born into wealth and privilege, while another is born into abject poverty and misery?" -- and, "Why should they be judged / rewarded the very same?"
It addresses issues like, "Why should a person who works hard to live a life of kindness and goodness, get the same "reward" as a jerk who cheats everyone but offers a deathbed 'repentence'?"
- And many other moral and religious dilemmas for which neither "mainstream" Christianity nor LDS have good replies/ explanations.
* * *
And please forgive if someone else already mentioned this, but there have been some very interesting studies done on children's memories of past lives (correlating with for example, birth defects and birth marks, which sometimes have to do with the way they died in a previous life) -- See for example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=past+li ... New Testament=firefox
~Gaia
It addresses issues like, "Why should a person who works hard to live a life of kindness and goodness, get the same "reward" as a jerk who cheats everyone but offers a deathbed 'repentence'?"
- And many other moral and religious dilemmas for which neither "mainstream" Christianity nor LDS have good replies/ explanations.
* * *
And please forgive if someone else already mentioned this, but there have been some very interesting studies done on children's memories of past lives (correlating with for example, birth defects and birth marks, which sometimes have to do with the way they died in a previous life) -- See for example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=past+li ... New Testament=firefox
~Gaia
-
_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
sleepyhead wrote:Hello,
The reason I believe reincarnation is better than the traditional belief of heaven/hell is that we view life as primarily another learning experience while the traditional belief views it as primarily a test.
The various sects of Christianity believe you only come to earth once, and then based on some criteria of what you said/did/believed your entire future is determined. Naturally these sects each provide some sort of edge for their adherants that others don't have. For Catholics it's confession, for evangelicals it's accepting Jesus as their saviour, and for Mormons it's temple stuff.
Reincarnationists see each day as a new opportunity to discover why we are in this present life and to grow from our experiences.
Hi Sleepyhead!
I appreciate your reasoning!
I am not sure why the LDS abandoned the belief in reincarnation. I have some ideas about why....but they are merely speculation.
Blessings,
jo
-
_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
Gaia wrote:It also offers some much better answers to questions like, "Why is one person born into wealth and privilege, while another is born into abject poverty and misery?" -- and, "Why should they be judged / rewarded the very same?"
It addresses issues like, "Why should a person who works hard to live a life of kindness and goodness, get the same "reward" as a jerk who cheats everyone but offers a deathbed 'repentence'?"
- And many other moral and religious dilemmas for which neither "mainstream" Christianity nor LDS have good replies/ explanations.
* * *
And please forgive if someone else already mentioned this, but there have been some very interesting studies done on children's memories of past lives (correlating with for example, birth defects and birth marks, which sometimes have to do with the way they died in a previous life) -- See for example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=past+li ... New Testament=firefox
~Gaia
Thank you, Gaia!
Reincarnation DOES answer so many, many questions. Once this was revealed to me as a True principle, I see it everywhere. It is not only revealed in canon, but also other books and writings of Christian and Hebraic heritage and tradition; and has always existed in many other world belief systems outside of Christianity.
I am very much enjoying your posts!
Blessings,
jo
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_Gaia
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:02 pm
Re: More Thoughts on Reincarnation
[quote="jo1952"]
Thank you, Gaia!
Reincarnation DOES answer so many, many questions. Once this was revealed to me as a True principle, I see it everywhere. It is not only revealed in canon, but also other books and writings of Christian and Hebraic heritage and tradition; and has always existed in many other world belief systems outside of Christianity.
I am very much enjoying your posts!
GAIA:
Thanks for the warm welcome, and hey -- Rightbackatcha, Jo!
Thank you, Gaia!
Reincarnation DOES answer so many, many questions. Once this was revealed to me as a True principle, I see it everywhere. It is not only revealed in canon, but also other books and writings of Christian and Hebraic heritage and tradition; and has always existed in many other world belief systems outside of Christianity.
I am very much enjoying your posts!
GAIA:
Thanks for the warm welcome, and hey -- Rightbackatcha, Jo!