Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Rosebud states that before their firing, the board was paying both her and John the same salary: $5000 a month. She and John were the only two employees Open Stories Foundation hired. Isn't it a bit odd for your boss to get paid the same amount as you? Rosebud also mentions that the board was making the decisions about if they should hire her as executive director or not. The board was ultimately in charge of hiring and firing decision, not John Dehlin. Joanna says in the Mormonism Live interview that ultimately their decision to favor Dehlin was because he was the founder, the face of Mormon Stories, and Rosebud was a much more junior employee with less than a year of work history for them.

If she had taken the executive director position that the board offered her, it would be even harder for her to claim Dehlin was her superior. Maybe that's why she doesn't give a good explanation as to why she refused to sign the executive director position contract when Open Stories Foundation offered it to her? She had to make as strong a case as possible that John Dehlin was her boss to make the sexual harassment claim, and accepting the executive director position wouldn't accomplish that goal.

@78:30 states the board has decided to make her pay equal to JD's 'because her work is on par with what's he doing' and that was going to be $5k/month - did I miss the email or Open Stories Foundation written confirmation of this claim? Where's the tender?

edit: As drumdude points out this puts her claim of sexual harassment at further risk because she herself claims their work was on par with one another, the board recognized that and offered equal pay for equal work, and if that's the case the only people that 'held power' over her were the women on the Open Stories Foundation board.

edit 2: take this revelation in conjunction with her stated game plan in Option 2 and texts it seems to me the sexual harassment piece has been significantly reduced because SHE thought and stated they were equals

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

I’m losing track of the documents. Have any of the NHHRC documents been linked?

[dastardly stem]

In light of Lems point, since I very much agree, I don't know Joanna Brooks, and she was likely very wise to run from this thing, it doesn't appear she handled it well. Why she help ed John cover it up with sly moves to keep it running is concerning. I can't imagine it would have taken much effort at all for amy board member to realize John forced Rosebud out as a result of an affair. It makes it seem like they were more interested in the foundation than any one person.

I also think Rosebud thought John was reading her queues in forcing Joanna out and they two would rule together. Kind of a silly thought at this point. But as has been pointed out she was pretty compromised.

John's pretty gross. His weird lies and moves worked, I guess. I mean he has a huge following, relatively speaking, including strong loyalty. How he got Natasha and Nadine to go on RfM and Bill's show is kind of crazy. How he got Bill and RfM to help defend him is, well, disappointing. Feels a little like a backfire to me, since they were adamantly defending Dehlin.

[Kishkumen]

That’s the root of the problem: Rosebud contradicts herself. In August of 2012 she said John was not her boss. In August of 2012 she said he did nothing wrong. It was only after John resigned against Rosebud’s advice, she refused to resign, and she was therefore sent a termination letter with a severance offer that she decided, in October of the same year, to threaten JD with a false claim of sexual harassment, which she followed through on. She said he did nothing wrong, then she threatened him with a false harassment claim, and now she expects everyone to take her claim at face value. There is absolutely no good reason to believe her claim. She is exploiting the good will extended to every other credible victim out there, and frankly it is disgusting.

[Jersey Girl]

I’m losing track of the documents. Have any of the NHHRC documents been linked?

RI unless I misunderstand what you are asking about, there is a link under the video to at least one of those.

[consiglieri]

In light of Lems point, since I very much agree, I don't know Joanna Brooks, and she was likely very wise to run from this thing, it doesn't appear she handled it well. Why she help ed John cover it up with sly moves to keep it running is concerning. I can't imagine it would have taken much effort at all for amy board member to realize John forced Rosebud out as a result of an affair. It makes it seem like they were more interested in the foundation than any one person.

I also think Rosebud thought John was reading her queues in forcing Joanna out and they two would rule together. Kind of a silly thought at this point. But as has been pointed out she was pretty compromised.

John's pretty gross. His weird lies and moves worked, I guess. I mean he has a huge following, relatively speaking, including strong loyalty. How he got Natasha and Nadine to go on RfM and Bill's show is kind of crazy. How he got Bill and RfM to help defend him is, well, disappointing. Feels a little like a backfire to me, since they were adamantly defending Dehlin.

Pep pep!

[Kishkumen]

In light of Lems point, since I very much agree, I don't know Joanna Brooks, and she was likely very wise to run from this thing, it doesn't appear she handled it well. Why she help ed John cover it up with sly moves to keep it running is concerning. I can't imagine it would have taken much effort at all for amy board member to realize John forced Rosebud out as a result of an affair. It makes it seem like they were more interested in the foundation than any one person.

I also think Rosebud thought John was reading her queues in forcing Joanna out and they two would rule together. Kind of a silly thought at this point. But as has been pointed out she was pretty compromised.

John's pretty gross. His weird lies and moves worked, I guess. I mean he has a huge following, relatively speaking, including strong loyalty. How he got Natasha and Nadine to go on RfM and Bill's show is kind of crazy. How he got Bill and RfM to help defend him is, well, disappointing. Feels a little like a backfire to me, since they were adamantly defending Dehlin.

Every reliable piece of information indicates that John and Rosebud were conducting a consensual affair and were mutually seeking to bring it to a close until they disagreed on what to do regarding Joanna Brooks’ ultimatum. Yes, extra-marital affairs are immoral. Affairs at work are really unwise. This affair in particular was especially unhealthy and unwise.

But Joanna Brooks is not responsible for the affair. She is also not to be faulted for telling John and Rosebud that she would quit before she allowed them to continue working together while engaged in an affair. We have no reliable knowledge of Rosebud approaching Joanna with a claim that John was harassing her in August of 2012 when Joanna made her ultimatum.

Why would Joanna think John was forcing Rosebud out, when it was Rosebud who approached Joanna first? When Rosebud made no accusation against John? Where was Joanna to see John’s alleged manipulation in this? It was Rosebud who told John to cooperate with Joanna until she told John the opposite. Where is John’s alleged manipulation in there?

Joanna made the ultimatum that they would both resign or she would. They did not come up with that. I have seen zero evidence that John came up with that “plan.” Rosebud pushed John to reject Joanna’s demand and force Joanna to resign. That is what the documentary evidence shows. I am not seeing John’s manipulation. I am not seeing Joanna’s mishandling of a claim that was not made. I see Rosebud telling John to cooperate with Joanna and then reversing her advice.

[warbreaker]

I am unclear on the current direction this thread is going. Regardless of rosebud’s credibility, is there any doubt that a superior had an extremely inappropriate relationship with a subordinate, which culminated in her losing her job?

From Rosebud's timeline as shared here: viewtopic.php?p=21493#p21493 , it appears that the relationship predated her hiring.

According to Open Stories Foundation current policy, this is sexual harassment. Just because they didn’t have a policy in place at the time only means it is not possible to enforce the penalties, it in no way means the sexual harassment did not happen.

I have a really hard time with this. They had a consensual affair. It ended messily.

Riddle me this. My wife started an at home business. I support her in it. It was successful. I quit my full time job and work for her. She is definitely in charge. What happens if we were to get divorced? What if she wants me to quit? What if I am continually sending her texts begging her to take me back? Are you saying if I got fired this would be sexual harrassment against me? Really? Once terms apply to such a broad range of circumstances, it seems like really dilutes their power for individuals that are in actual situations where their boss is pressuring them for sexual favors or they will destroy their livelihood.

And for the record, I dislike JD as much as the next guy. I think he is a lazy interviewer, extremely sloppy, and don't doubt that he's a narcissist. I just don't see any sexual harrassment going on here.

[Lem]

Who said John came up with the plan? in my opinion, a superior had an inappropriate relationship with someone with less power, and when it became an issue in the workplace, the board forced her out of her employment as a way to deal with it. I've said this before, in my opinion both the Open Stories Foundation board and Dehlin are guilty of sexual harassment, as per their own current policy.

[drumdude]

It's a shame the old board is broken now. Lots of posts 404'ed. No way to search for the posts that John and Rosebud made about the matter publicly at the time.