Former Stake President managing MormonThink

[_hobo1512]

Funny, I wasn't the one that brought up the point that the Bible is more legitmate than the Book of Mormon because it took place in locations we can identify. Seems the Book of Mormon shares the same heritage in that it took place in some locations we can ALSO identify. It must therefore be legitimate ACCORDING to you.

Man, reading really isn't your strong suit is it. Do you understand what Plagiarism is? Let me help you out. I got one of the more simple definitions to help you out.

Plagiarism is when you use someone else's words or ideas and pass them off as your own.

Alot of the Book of Mormon was plagiarized from the Bible. That is why there are so many similarities.

That's special. Mormon hill isn't the hill Cumorah and don't quote GA's to me since I really could care less. Neither Joseph Smith nor the Angel Moroni referred to Mormon hill as such.

Oh you're gonna be in trouble! Does the first presidency know you could care less? Bad Mormon bad.

Yes, if God had told him face-to-face it was true, he would have wasted a lot less time.

How do you know the Mormon god didn't? Are you saying your "testimony" is greater than his? Why did your Mormon god let him fail and lose his testimony?

I don't think you are the one keeping up here since you seem to miss the most obvious of my points.

[/quote]
Keep telling yourself that little buddy. Just make sure you look both ways before you cross the street, and that you wear your helmet outside ok?

[_why me]

Hatred? What, you're a mind reader now?

What I am demonstrating cannot be considered hatred toward Mormonism when we look at your hatred toward Catholicism.

Nice try.

[_hobo1512]

Hatred? What, you're a mind reader now?

What I am demonstrating cannot be considered hatred toward Mormonism when we look at your hatred toward Catholicism.

Nice try.

Nope, was a slam dunk, but hey, thanks for playing. Is that the best you've got?

Has anyone else been able to see those imaginary nuns and priests yet, or is it still just you?

Have you ever come clean and admitted you lied when you said you were Catholic?

[_Darth J]

why me:

David Whitmer was told by God to leave Joseph Smith's church and start another church. Is this the kind of spiritual clarity and divine communication we can expect when we purge the hatred from our hearts?

One thing that I know about david, is that he had an experience that he could not shake or deny. And he had his testimony put on his tombstone.

And he also had an experience telling him that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet, which he could not shake or deny. And he went to his grave as the president of the Whitmerite Church. So since the professed sincerity of a belief means that the belief is objectively true, you should leave the LDS Church, because Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet. If you believe Whitmer's testimony of the Book of Mormon, believe his testimony that Joseph was a fallen prophet. That's what he said.

Of course, all this was not in the MT link. And I wonder why.

It IS in the Mormon Think link:

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm#whitmer

Despite his hostility toward the LDS Church, Whitmer always stood by his claim that he had actually seen the Golden Plates . . . Whitmer ordered his testimony to the Book of Mormon placed on his tombstone.

Are you lying, why me, or have you just never actually read the thing you are commenting on?

[_why me]

In the CONTEXT of good ol joe and his cronies, spiritual eyes means we're pulling a con, and duping these rubes.

Duh

Throughout their lives, the witnesses bore their testimonies. Here is martin harris on his deathbed:

[i]One morning in July I thought I would go to see Brother Harris. He lived about three blocks from my home and I had heard that he was not well. People were coming from far and near to see him and hear his testimony.

When I arrived I found two other men present -- Brother James Joseph Keep and Brother John Godfrey. Brother Harris lay in bed resting on his elbow. “How are you Brother Harris?” I asked. “Oh, pretty well” he replied.

“We came to hear your testimony of the Book of Mormon,” I said. He raised up and said, “Yes, I wish I could make the whole world hear my Testimony.” He stretched out his arm and said, “Brothers I believe there is an angel here to hear what I am going to say to you and you will never forget what I say.”

“The Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and myself went into a small grove to pray to obtain a promise that we should behold with our own eyes that we could testify to the whole world. At length the angel stood before Oliver and David with the plates in his hand. I had gone a little apart to pray, and in my desperation I asked the prophet to kneel and pray with me. He did so and immediately the angel stood before me and said, “LOOK.” When I glanced at him I fell to the ground but immediately got up and saw the angel turn the leaves of the golden plates over and I said, “IT IS ENOUGH MY LORD AND MY GOD.” I then heard the voice of God say, “THE Book of Mormon IS TRUE AND TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.”

Lets put this on the MT site....oppps I forgot...it is too faith promoting.

[_hobo1512]

In the CONTEXT of good ol joe and his cronies, spiritual eyes means we're pulling a con, and duping these rubes.

Duh

Throughout their lives, the witnesses bore their testimonies. Here is martin harris on his deathbed:

[i]One morning in July I thought I would go to see Brother Harris. He lived about three blocks from my home and I had heard that he was not well. People were coming from far and near to see him and hear his testimony.

When I arrived I found two other men present -- Brother James Joseph Keep and Brother John Godfrey. Brother Harris lay in bed resting on his elbow. “How are you Brother Harris?” I asked. “Oh, pretty well” he replied.

“We came to hear your testimony of the Book of Mormon,” I said. He raised up and said, “Yes, I wish I could make the whole world hear my Testimony.” He stretched out his arm and said, “Brothers I believe there is an angel here to hear what I am going to say to you and you will never forget what I say.”

“The Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and myself went into a small grove to pray to obtain a promise that we should behold with our own eyes that we could testify to the whole world. At length the angel stood before Oliver and David with the plates in his hand. I had gone a little apart to pray, and in my desperation I asked the prophet to kneel and pray with me. He did so and immediately the angel stood before me and said, “LOOK.” When I glanced at him I fell to the ground but immediately got up and saw the angel turn the leaves of the golden plates over and I said, “IT IS ENOUGH MY LORD AND MY GOD.” I then heard the voice of God say, “THE Book of Mormon IS TRUE AND TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.”

Lets put this on the MT site....oppps I forgot...it is too faith promoting.

To use a morg tactic.

That was recorded by someone else. We don't know that it was true. We don't know he actually said that. There weren't recording devices back then.

You have used each one of those feeble excuses in the past for other things. The same could apply here.

Also, many people involved in cons take their secret right to their grave with them. Especially back then because of the repercussions their family and friends would endure after their deaths.

Double DUH

[_why me]

More on Martin's testomonies:


After being excommunicated from the church, Martin Harris remained in Kirtland, Ohio. In 1869, 25 years after the death of Joseph Smith, Martin was asked about if he really did believe Joseph Smith and the "gold Bible". Martin stated,

"Do I believe it! Do you see the sun shining! Just as surely as the sun is shining on us and gives us light, and the moon and stars give us light by night, just as surely as the breath of life sustains us, so surely do I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, chosen of God to open the last dispensation of the fulness of times; so surely do I know that the Book of Mormon was divinely translated. I saw the plates; I saw the Angel; I heard the voice of God. I know that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, I might as well doubt my own existence as to doubt the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon or the divine calling of Joseph Smith."

Five years later Martin would finally rejoin the LDS Church, which he played a key role in founding, and moved to the Cache Valley area of Utah. He was never called to any leadership positions, but would share his testimony whenever asked. He gave his last testimony moments before his death on July 10, 1875. William Homer, who was present with Martin in his last hours recorded:

"Martin Harris had been unconscious for a number of days. When we first entered the room the old gentleman appeared to be sleeping. He soon woke up and asked for a drink of water. I put my arm under the old gentleman, raised him, and my mother held the glass to his lips. He drank freely, then he looked up at me and recognized me. He said, "I know you. You are my friend." He said, "Yes, I did see the plates on which the Book of Mormon was written; I did see the angel; I did hear the voice of God; and I do know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, holding the keys of the Holy Priesthood." This was the end. Martin Harris, divinely-chosen witness of the work of God, relaxed, gave up my hand. He lay back on his pillow and just as the sun went down behind the Clarkston mountains, the soul of Martin Harris passed on. When Martin Harris, Jr., and his wife returned to the house they found that their father had passed away, but in the passing, Martin Harris, favored of God, repeated an irrefutable testimony of the divine inspiration and the prophetic genius of the great Prophet, Joseph Smith.”

Martin had been a deep man of faith his whole life. If Martin had lied about the plates, or been conspiring with Joseph to con and deceive the world, he likely would have wanted to confess and repent prior to dying. Instead, he felt putting his soul right with God included bearing his testimony about what he was been blessed to witness one last time on his deathbed.

http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/Martin_Harris.html

[Guest]

To use a morg tactic.

That was recorded by someone else. We don't know that it was true. We don't know he actually said that. There weren't recording devices back then.

You have used each one of those feeble excuses in the past for other things. The same could apply here.

Also, many people involved in cons take their secret right to their grave with them. Especially back then because of the repercussions their family and friends would endure after their deaths.

Martin constantly bore his testimony to whoever would ask him to. No problem. But to bear one's testimony in front of adult children knowing it is a lie...well...what can I say? But martin and oliver did this? Not to mention others? You lost hobo. Now go watch TV.

[_hobo1512]

To use a morg tactic.

That was recorded by someone else. We don't know that it was true. We don't know he actually said that. There weren't recording devices back then.

You have used each one of those feeble excuses in the past for other things. The same could apply here.

Also, many people involved in cons take their secret right to their grave with them. Especially back then because of the repercussions their family and friends would endure after their deaths.

Martin constantly bore his testimony to whoever who would ask him to. No problem. But to bear one's testimony infront of adult children knowing it is a lie...well...what can I say? But martin and oliver did this? Not to mention others? You lost hobo. Now go watch TV.

They could have written down anything they wanted. They might have misunderstood. After all, humans make mistakes.

You have used these same tactics when faced with this same exact situation. You in fact tried to use these types of defenses when talking about the King Follett discourse.

Here is a direct quote from a thread you participated in over at CAF.

"I would need to see the context and as to whether it was taken from someone's notes who heard him speak or from a prepared speech"

or

"However, there is no King Follett sermon written in Joseph Smith's hand to my knowledge and what was said by Joseph Smith during the sermon were taken from four diarists who wrote down what they believed was said."

BUSTED!!!!!

I underlined the good stuff for you, just in case you missed it.

YOU LOSE...............LMFAO

Shalom

Read it here. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=261486&page=7

I can't watch him try to wiggle out of this.....LOL

[_Darth J]

Funny, I wasn't the one that brought up the point that the Bible is more legitmate than the Book of Mormon because it took place in locations we can identify. Seems the Book of Mormon shares the same heritage in that it took place in some locations we can ALSO identify. It must therefore be legitimate ACCORDING to you.

Let's watch and see if the Star Trek Tobin god has told Tobin where Zarahemla was.

Mormon hill isn't the hill Cumorah and don't quote GA's to me since I really could care less. Neither Joseph Smith nor the Angel Moroni referred to Mormon hill as such.

Biographical sketches of Joseph Smith the prophet, and his progenitors for many generations, by Lucy Mack Smith, page 99

(reporting a conversation she witnessed between Joe, Sr. and Joe, Jr.)

"Stop, father, stop," said Joseph, "it was the angel of the Lord: as I passed by the hill of Cumorah, where the plates are, the angel met me and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord; that the time had come for the record to be brought forth and that I must be up and doing and set myself about the things which God had commanded me to do."

Since Tobin has me on ignore, maybe someone would like to point out to him that Joseph Smith did in fact refer to the hill as Cumorah. Additionally, please inform him that this is not hearsay. It would be hearsay if you were trying to prove that the hill was in reality Cumorah. It is not hearsay when the issue is whether another person heard Joseph Smith call the hill "Cumorah."