True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

[_SteelHead]

Oh snap! Wales was the wrong place, I need to be looking in Israel or Nephite lands.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82675569/Tolk ... r-Scribd-2

[_Robert F Smith]

I think it's obvious the issue is not as cut and dry as some would like it to be.

True enough, Themis.

[_Robert F Smith]

If you don't know that, it is only because you uncritically accept false information from those who hate the LDS Church. Does that strike you as a reasonable basis on which to make a decision on scholarly questions that you are not qualified to pass judgment upon? Is that why you pass judgment "without looking at all the evidence." Does it embarrass you to actually admit to that blatantly unfair approach?

I find myself judging everything around me without first knowing all I can. We all come to conclusions before the facts are laid out. That is why I must keep an open mine to new things as they come into view. Whether led by the Holy Spirit or by a search of man's knowledge I struggle to keep myself open. It is a very difficult thing to do. The easy path is to settle and remain fixed.

When we make an argument in opposition to the knowledge set of the anti Mormons it normally falls on deaf ears and blind eyes. Sadly they are deaf and blind by choice. I know that I do not possess all truth that is why I keep looking for truth. Only by knowing truth can I walk in a path that is pleasing to God. Just as some settle on faith and belief as their path those same people settle on partial truth. These people are subject to the wisdom of the world.

For these comments I expect to be stoned. But I have not been stoned today and the weather is good for it.

I'm not sure whether I should feel your pain, Frank, but I'm sure glad that it's a free country and that we are temporarily free from being stoned.

[_Franktalk]

I'm not sure whether I should feel your pain, Frank, but I'm sure glad that it's a free country and that we are temporarily free from being stoned.

When one walks a spiritual path it is a constant struggle with the flesh and the world. A war inside that consumes you. Then add on top when we share our path we are told how completely stupid we are. That to me is the most frustrating part of life. But the world hated Jesus before me.

[_lance peters]

I'm not sure whether I should feel your pain, Frank, but I'm sure glad that it's a free country and that we are temporarily free from being stoned.

When one walks a spiritual path it is a constant struggle with the flesh and the world. A war inside that consumes you. Then add on top when we share our path we are told how completely stupid we are. That to me is the most frustrating part of life. But the world hated Jesus before me.

... and the Mormon "persecution complex" is as strong as ever ...

[_Philo Sofee]

Lance Peters:

Joseph Smith relied on "faith and belief" and, because of this reliance, Joseph Smith influenced millions.

Newton relied on "human wisdom" and, because of this reliance, Isaac Newton influenced billions.

Newton Billions, Joseph Smith Millions

Human Wisdom Billions, Faith and Belief Millions

I disagree with you quite profoundly. This comparison is tame and mild. In the 400 or so years since Newton his understanding and knowledge has influences TENS of billions, not mere billions.

[_lance peters]

Lance Peters:

Joseph Smith relied on "faith and belief" and, because of this reliance, Joseph Smith influenced millions.

Newton relied on "human wisdom" and, because of this reliance, Isaac Newton influenced billions.

Newton Billions, Joseph Smith Millions

Human Wisdom Billions, Faith and Belief Millions

I disagree with you quite profoundly. This comparison is tame and mild. In the 400 or so years since Newton his understanding and knowledge has influences TENS of billions, not mere billions.

Hahahaha, very good point; in fact, I had originally intended to write ,"tens of billions", however fearing backlash from the Mormon apologist's uncanny ability to argue on the fringes while leaving the 'meat and potatoes' alone, I decided to cut my "human wisdom" estimates by a good 75% while adding a few million to "faith and belief" estimates. However, in reality, the "faith and belief" estimates should be discounted by at least 55%; I guess I credit my 'kind' estimates to charity ... no, not your run-of-the-mill, bigotry-laden, Jesus-branded charity, but the unconditional charity that is only available to the chosen few who've discovered that 'God is a lie'.

[_Robert F Smith]

Since anything a Mormon might say on such matters is immediately suspect at best, I thought you might want to go look at the non-Mormon source I cited. I am well aware that the polemicists use the knee-jerk "coincidence" reaction, no matter what the value of any piece of evidence, even a complete system (as here) being automatically suspect. Still, you might want to have a look at the basic Book of Mormon system laid out by John Welch in JBMS, 8/2 (1999), 36-46 (my chart on page 46 therein), online at http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=2&id=566. You will still need to compare it to Bill Dever's comments, above.

This also goes along with the question of why the Book of Mormon (and the Plates of Brass) are written in Egyptian. The Bible certainly gives no hint of such a practice. Yet we now know that this would not have been so odd in a world in which Israelite scribes actually used ancient Egyptian. See N. Fox, In the Service of the King: Officialdom in Ancient Israel and Judah, HUC Monograph (2000), 250-268; O. Goldwasser, “An Egyptian Scribe from Lachish and the Hieratic Tradition of the Hebrew Kingdoms,” Tel Aviv, 18 (1991), 248-253; R. Kletter, Economic Keystones: The Weight System of the Kingdom of Judah (Sheffield Academic, 1998); S. Wimmer, Palaestinisches Hieratisch: Die Zahl- und Sonderzeichen in der althebraeischen Schrift (Harrassowitz, 2008).

Coincidence is certainly something we have to look at. How many parralels can we find if we look hard enough?

Edit: I noticed you mentioning the brass plates. It along with the gold plates gets ignored to much by most and how unlikely they both really are.

Themis,
One assumes the parallels selected should be of high quality and that they be convincing to any reasonable person. That sets the bar pretty high. Furthermore, legitimate parallels are actually difficult to find. That is what scholarship is all about.

As to the unlikely nature of the Brass Plates and Gold Plates (I don't believe that they have been ignored), perhaps you noticed above that I used the improbability of the larger Book of Mormon story (finding of the plates, and the contents of the Book of Mormon itself) as the key to its best philosophical defense, i.e., the mere existence of the Bible seems more probable due to its having been transmitted through time, while the Book of Mormon seems quite improbable. There is only one problem: Since the Book of Mormon contains far too many verifiable marks of authenticity, its very improbable nature becomes a defense of the miracles it contains as well as the miracle of its coming forth, and therefore also makes miracles in the Bible more plausible and probable.

Of course, if you are unaware of those verifiable marks of authenticity, and wish to reject them automatically, you will not be influenced by this line of argument.
Bob

[_Themis]

Bob,

I am out of town for a few days so I will get back to you then. Have a good weekend.

[_SteelHead]

Verifiable marks of authenticity?

Do tell.....